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mtlogcabin
October 18th, 2011, 16:34
2009 IPC
802.1.8 Food utensils, dishes, pots and pans sinks.
Sinks used for the washing, rinsing or sanitizing of utensils, dishes, pots, pans or serviceware used in the preparation, serving or eating of food shall discharge indirectly through an air gap or an air break or directly connect to the drainage system.

The IPC seems to indicate you can discharge a 3 compartment sink anyway the contractor chooses. What do you see out there where a 3 compartment sink discharges into a grease trap located under the sink?

gbhammer
October 18th, 2011, 17:09
The only required air gap for a three compartment sink is between the fixture and the rim of the sinks. Most health departments do require an air gap at a floor sink in order to avoid the potential for the contamination of a washing station. So long as you are not violating any other adopted code of your jurisdiction then yes you can connect directly to the grease trap.

Our Department always lets engineers know that the health department will jump them if they do not use indirect waste for the compartments of the sink.

Papio Bldg Dept
October 18th, 2011, 17:55
Our Department always lets engineers know that the health department will jump them if they do not use indirect waste for the compartments of the sink.

Almost nailed it....IPC 2006 802.1.1 Food handling. Equipment and fixtures...shall discharge through an indirect waste pipe by means of an air gap.

Papio Bldg Dept
October 18th, 2011, 17:59
2009 IPC
802.1.8 Food utensils, dishes, pots and pans sinks.
Sinks used for the washing, rinsing or sanitizing of utensils, dishes, pots, pans or serviceware used in the preparation, serving or eating of food shall discharge indirectly through an air gap or an air break or directly connect to the drainage system.

The IPC seems to indicate you can discharge a 3 compartment sink anyway the contractor chooses. What do you see out there where a 3 compartment sink discharges into a grease trap located under the sink?

Still in the 2006 here...but a 3-comp has the potential for use with food handling, and thereby needs to be indirect.

mtlogcabin
October 18th, 2011, 18:41
Grease traps have flow restrictors and if you dump all 3 compartments at the same time it is a big mess if you have an air gap. All kitchens have a floor drain so unless the grease trap plugs up it won't back up a sink.. I am not a plumber I am just trying to understand some of the logic that is missing in the codes.

DAYWALKER
October 19th, 2011, 08:35
Floor drain within 5' feet.......direct connect.

Papio Bldg Dept
October 19th, 2011, 10:12
Grease traps have flow restrictors and if you dump all 3 compartments at the same time it is a big mess if you have an air gap. All kitchens have a floor drain so unless the grease trap plugs up it won't back up a sink.. I am not a plumber I am just trying to understand some of the logic that is missing in the codes.

I guess I don't fully understand what you are asking. A grease trap does not need to be located at the 3-comp sink. Typically, when a grease trap is located at a 3-comp sink, it is an above floor 80-90lb model. Typically with a 3 comp sink, all three comps are not drained simultaneously, however, due to code requirements, the drain and over flow shall be sized appropriately, so that as you say, it will not cause a big mess, when the person using it does not use logic. Once again, the ICC could use some more clarification in the code language to illustrate the intent. My understanding, is that an above floor grease trap can not handle an indirect connection with a 3 comp sink if there is not a collector between the two, and the indirect connection should occur at a floor sink capable of handling the rate of flow capacity.

Papio Bldg Dept
October 19th, 2011, 13:07
...I am just trying to understand some of the logic that is missing in the codes.

This is the best explanation I could find in regards to your OP...hope this helps.

http://www.dallascityhall.com/pdf/Building/three_compartment_sink.pdf

mtlogcabin
October 19th, 2011, 14:32
The problem we are having is the UPC only requires an air gap on food prep sinks which would not include a 3 compartment sink. Most installations the grease trap sits on the floor under or next to the sink and is a direct connection to the grease trap. Which is permitted under the UPC. The health department comes in after we are gone and tells them they have to have an air gap on the 3 compartment sink because their rules include "utensil sinks". 2 different state agencies with conflicting requirements. Basically I am trying to find a solution so the plumber is not caught in the middle and the owner doesn't have an occasional mess.

Papio the link to Dallas is the best I have seen yet. Thanks

gbhammer
October 19th, 2011, 16:43
If a DP or owner labels a three compartment sink for pots pans / utensil rinse only, we can't call them liars and say we know they will do food prep. Especially when they have labeled prep sinks. They can connect them direct and a three compartment sink does need a grease trap (2009 IPC 1003.3.1 really spells this out but it was intended in 03 and 06).

Papio Bldg Dept
October 20th, 2011, 10:38
If a DP or owner labels a three compartment sink for pots pans / utensil rinse only, we can't call them liars and say we know they will do food prep. Especially when they have labeled prep sinks. They can connect them direct and a three compartment sink does need a grease trap (2009 IPC 1003.3.1 really spells this out but it was intended in 03 and 06).

You bring up an interesting point, and being in the 06, I haven't faced this yet, because that section is not in there, however, what do you do when there is a change in ownership/management post facto and that wash sink is now used for food prep also. From my point of view, it should really be left up to the health department to regulate the requirement, which is, what it sounds like the 09 is trying to do. I saw that the 09 is a bit thicker than the 06 (maybe twice). I wonder what else we will be up against.

Papio Bldg Dept
October 20th, 2011, 10:43
If a DP or owner labels a three compartment sink for pots pans / utensil rinse only, we can't call them liars and say we know they will do food prep.

You are correct, without proof of a lie, we should not call them liars, however, I have called them liars when they have lied to me (i.e., cold storage bays with phone jack and uni-sex restroom in each bay).

georgia plans exam
October 20th, 2011, 11:02
This is from the link Papio provided:


Table 709.1 does not list a 3 compartment sink therefore Table 709.2 establishes the dfu’s values for each fixturedrain. Therefore, a 3 compartment sink has a total of 3, 1 ” fixture drains with a total assigned value of 6 dfu’s (2dfu’s per 1 ” drain outlet. Table 709.2 indicates that a 3” trap will carry 5 dfu’s because the 3 compartment sinkis draining indirectly the 3” floor sink would be the minimumsize floor sink required.

What am I missing? If you have 6 dfu's would not Table 709.2 require a 4" floor sink?

GPE

Papio Bldg Dept
October 20th, 2011, 11:19
This is from the link Papio provided:


Table 709.1 does not list a 3 compartment sink therefore Table 709.2 establishes the dfu’s values for each fixturedrain. Therefore, a 3 compartment sink has a total of 3, 1 ” fixture drains with a total assigned value of 6 dfu’s (2dfu’s per 1 ” drain outlet. Table 709.2 indicates that a 3” trap will carry 5 dfu’s because the 3 compartment sinkis draining indirectly the 3” floor sink would be the minimumsize floor sink required.

What am I missing? If you have 6 dfu's would not Table 709.2 require a 4" floor sink?

GPE



709.2 (Fixtures not listed in Table 709.1) & 709.4 (Values for indirect waste receptor) both appear to indicate that the minimum fixture drain size for the floor sink (waste receptor) should be sized to a minimum of 6 dfus for a minimum of 4 inches.

The Dallas article references the commentary as follows:
“Waste receptors such as hub drains and floor sinks are typically used to receive waste from multiple
indirectly connected fixtures. The simultaneous discharge of indirectly connected fixtures may result in a
greater load on the drainage system than accounted for by Table 709.2. For example, a 3 inch hub drain
could be serving four 1 1/2” indirect waste, which may represent a total load of 8 dfu (4 by 2dfus),
however Table 709.2 would assign a total load determined by this section is less than the given by Table
709.1 or 709.2, as applicable, the table values must prevail.”

georgia plans exam
October 20th, 2011, 16:00
Ok, I think I get it. Table 709.2 is only used to assign the number of dfu's to a fixture which is not listed in Table 709.1, not to size the fixture itself.

Sorry if I sidetracked a bit from the OP's original question. Thanks, all.

GPE

skipharper
November 3rd, 2011, 15:31
I believe what happened was because the health departments always want the rinse bowl to be indirect the code was changed to say direct or indirect. Remember, two of the three bowls still are a direct connection going thru the grease trap and the grease trap discharge is direct as well. The rinse bowl would need to be caught on plan review and a floor sink/drain added in there to accomodate that.