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unlimited area buildings - mixed occupancy bldg w/ use group A-2

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  • unlimited area buildings - mixed occupancy bldg w/ use group A-2

    1 story type IIB 130,000+sf sprinklered bldg with mostly retail (M) proposes to change 4800sf to two restaurants (A2).
    IBC 2009 jurisdiction.

    507.3.1 Mixed occupancy buildings with Groups A-1 and A-2 allows this provided:

    1. the new A2 spaces are separated by 2 hour fire partitions even with sprinkler system.
    2. each A2 space can NOT exceed 9500 sf.
    3. all required exits from each space must exit directly to the exterior; aka the 2nd exit can NOT be to an existing rear hallway (corridor) that leads to the outside(?).

    correct??? comments???

    could the rear exit hallway apply if it was considered a horizontal exit or a corridor?? if a corridor can it be shared between multiple spaces??
    Last edited by syarn; June 1st, 2011, 22:53.

  • #2
    If the aggregate area of the A occupancies were less than 10% of the building area, I wonder if it would be possible to allow the area and height to be based on the main occupancy per 508.3.1.2 (2006 IBC)? I'd like to know what you and other members think about this.

    To answer your question directly, note the code says exits shall discharge directly to the exterior. Maybe if the corridor was built as an exit passageway?
    Last edited by texasbo; June 2nd, 2011, 08:15. Reason: added reference to 2006

    Comment


    • #3
      10% and less than the tabular value of Table 503. No increases for sprinklers or separation.

      Comment


      • #4
        Ah, Mixed Occupancies.

        Do not have the 2009 in our area. No AHJ is using it around here.

        2006 IBC Section 508.3; has three ways to deal with mixed occupancy separations. You have to choose which one in most beneficial to your project.
        1. Accessory occupancies: Section 508.3.1; is the 10% rule
        2. Nonseparated occupancies: Section 508.3.2; is where you get the mixed occupancies to have all the whistles and bells for the entire building in trying to avoid rated separations.
        3. Separated occupancies: Section 508.3.3; this is when you have to use rated separations.

        The catch with your project is that the building is using the Unlimited Area Section for all the occupancies uses. The Assembly as you pointed out has to comply with the Exceptions for A-1 and A-2. Per the Exception the Assembly separation must follow Section 508.3.3.4 and area limit in Section 503.1.

        Section 508.3.3.4 sends you to Table 508.3.3; I see a 1-hour separation between A, B & M for a sprinklered building.

        As for Section 503.1 it is the section where the Table of the allowable area is listed. You are not allowed any area increases for the accessory occupancy.

        The Assembly Exits must be to the exterior or discharge into an EXIT or EXIT Passageway that leads to the exterior.

        Hope this is of some help.
        Chaos, Panic, Disorder.....my work is done here.
        Bureaucracy is a challenge to be conquered with a righteous attitude, the tolerance for stupidity and a bulldozer when necessary.

        Comment


        • #5
          Two approaches allowed. If the assembly space is small (<9,500 sf and <10%), you can follow the accessory use provisions and no fire resistive rated separation is required and the exits do not have to be directly to the outside. If the assembly space is larger, then the separation is required and the exits must discharge directly to the outside.

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          • #6
            Be careful with accessory uses - Means of egress issues must be designed in accordance with chapter 10 for the intended uses - section 1024? Assembly may have requirements for exits that lead directly to the exterior based on projected occupant loads base dupon the use of the floor space.
            Lost is the south......
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            • #7
              ?.........

              Comment


              • #8
                thx u all.

                just got back from the site survey.

                texasbo - the rear exit spills into a exit passageway....only 1 other tenant (other door; other restaurant user) uses the corridor.

                the exit passageway goes right to the outside.

                the other good thing discovered is there is a "fire wall" on the one side that basically reduces the overall SF down to approx. 34700 sf. with 4800 sf total split for the 2 restaurants and the rest is 1 mercantile tenant and the exit passageway.

                of course some frontage area credit is lost....but looks good to me between the sprinkler system and the exit passageway. the other restaurant is already in & operating too...they may have another door around the side to the outside in addition to the passageway door...

                full sprinkler system.

                thanks again for the attention.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Are you sure it is a real firewall or a fire barrier? Firewalls have to remain in place upon the collapse of the building on either side.

                  I ask this because you mentioned unlimited building. If there are firewalls then some of the rules and comments may change.
                  Chaos, Panic, Disorder.....my work is done here.
                  Bureaucracy is a challenge to be conquered with a righteous attitude, the tolerance for stupidity and a bulldozer when necessary.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Nice catch Examiner......that use to really tick me off when I was reviewing and dealing with proposals for Chapter 8 of the NFPA Life Safety Code.................terms...............sorry.... ..........carry on :)

                    "Fire suppression is a failure in prevention, practice fire safety, the life saved may be your own"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      https://picasaweb.google.com/svyarna...eat=directlink

                      the link above shows photos of the wall from survey.

                      the architect's drawings for the previous up fit labelled the wall as a fire wall on his drawings.

                      I will ask the landlord to provide a section drawing thru the wall to further verify if indeed it is a fire wall.

                      thx u very much.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As a Architect I can tell you that not all Architects know the difference between a fire wall and other fire rated walls (fire barrier & fire partition).

                        It looks to me like an area separation wall that is no longer allowed. Area separation wall was in the UBC as I recall but never in the SBC.

                        However, you do need to find out if it will structurally stand in place upon collapse of the building on either side. I think the roof will take the wall down.
                        Chaos, Panic, Disorder.....my work is done here.
                        Bureaucracy is a challenge to be conquered with a righteous attitude, the tolerance for stupidity and a bulldozer when necessary.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          this condition could be a laterally supported loadbearing fire wall....

                          page 3 of pdf link

                          http://www.kirchnerblock.com/pdfs/TE...ist_05-08B.pdf

                          yes trying to get more info on the condition....

                          thx u.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Is this a strip center, outdoor mall or covered mall building?

                            The photos down the corridor appear as if it is one of the above mentioned types of mercantile buildings.

                            Read the Section on Fire Walls carefully. Check to see if the vertical and horizontal abutments of the wall to the roof and exterior walls comply with the many allowed exceptions. Doing that may also determine if the fire wall complies with end terminations. Also notice the allowable max penetrations in the Code and what is actually there. One photo seems to reveal a walled up infield where a door or other opening was. It just does not look like it was to be a FIRE WALL. More like an area separation wall or maybe an occupancy separation wall (fire barrier).

                            Fire walls are generally straight through the building from exterior wall to exterior wall and depending on the end termination may not be required to extend beyond the exterior wall or roof line.
                            Chaos, Panic, Disorder.....my work is done here.
                            Bureaucracy is a challenge to be conquered with a righteous attitude, the tolerance for stupidity and a bulldozer when necessary.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              examiner

                              it is a strip center.

                              http://www.kormancommercial.com/retail/bucks/index.html

                              the photo down corridor separates a large supermarket (acme brand in the NE) from a TJ Maxx clothing and now the 5 guys burgers and soon to be saladworks....

                              yes will review the fire walls section. yes there is an area of the wall where it does appear to be CMU infilled under a lintel.

                              thx u for ur attention.

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