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Thread: Egress window for open loft

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by globe trekker View Post
    All sleeping rooms must have an EERO, and the structure must have a minimum
    of one compliant egress door. Instead of having an EERO in the loft area, and
    since the entire cabin is an open plan, can you install a minimum of one EERO
    downstairs? I would be ok with having a compliant EERO and egress door
    downstairs, ..preferably at opposite ends of the structure from each other.




    .
    If you walk down the stairs from the loft open to the same room and out the front door why is a window needed


    Would everyone require a window if there was a bed on the bottom?


    Efficiency. Like motel 6

  2. #22
    Administrator fatboy's Avatar
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    The same reason you need the EERO when you still walk out of that same room, but now it has a wall, instead of a guard, separating you from the required egress door. JMHO
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  3. #23
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    If you have a door directly to the outside from the room an egress window is not required.
    The door is the one and only required egress from the room.
    The requirement is for an egress opening; not specifically a window.
    This is turning into an interesting discussion with lots of opinions but lacking code language for support. JMHO

  4. #24
    Administrator fatboy's Avatar
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    It is going to depend on what you consider the "sleeping room' space. Is it the entire space, because the is only a guard and stairs separating you from the required egress door? Or, are you condidering the guard/stairs to be a separation creating a separate room thus requiring the window? Also, could this be considered a "habitable attic"?

    To many if's for me, put an EERO in the loft.

    From R310.1, and Chapter 2 attic and habitable definitions.
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  5. #25
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    Efficiency. Like motel 6

  6. #26
    Administrator fatboy's Avatar
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    You don't negotiate a set of stairs separating levels within a Motel 6 room.
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  7. #27
    Sawhorse Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark handler View Post
    Loft?...

    I think Mark has the right idea with this picture. "2009 IRC, definitions. Mezzanine, Loft. An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story with an aggregate floor area of not more than one-third of the area of the room or space in which the level or levels, are located." It is NOT a bedroom and does not require separate emergency egress. Uncle Bob
    Last edited by Uncle Bob; June 28th, 2013 at 17:51.
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  8. #28
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    I would recommend an egress window, but would not require it.

    NBCC:
    9.7.1.2.Bedroom Windows
    1)Except where the suite is sprinklered, each bedroom or combination bedroom shall have at least one outside window or exterior door openable from the inside without the use of keys, tools or special knowledge and without the removal of sashes or hardware. (See Article 9.5.1.2. and Appendix A.)
    2)The window referred to in Sentence (1) shall
    a) provide an unobstructed opening of not less than 0.35 m2 in area with no dimension less than 380 mm, and
    b) maintain the required opening during an emergency without the need for additional support.
    Since there are no walls, it would be arbitrary to say where the bedroom ends. I can't see how this could be tested in court. I could argue that the stairs down to the main level and a passage large enough to travel to the front door is all part of the bedroom, complying with the requirements for the window. Unless you have an established procedure you need to tread carefully as the decision rendered in this case will become precedent, so some thought to future situations might be in order.

  9. #29
    Administrator fatboy's Avatar
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    I agree it could/would set a precedent......then at what point does that cute open guard, become a half height wall, a 3/4 height wall, a full wall with no door, to what degree of separation are you willing to accept/defend?

    Each of us need to know that limit and be willing to stand by it.
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  10. #30
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    Say you have only the compliant egress door from this small cabin, with someone sleeping in the
    upstairs loft, ..magically, there is a fire event that blocks the front door egressing capability.
    Now what?



    .
    Please pray for Wilson ("Daddy-O") and his family!



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by globe trekker View Post
    Say you have only the compliant egress door from this small cabin, with someone sleeping in the
    upstairs loft, ..magically, there is a fire event that blocks the front door egressing capability.
    Now what?





    .

    Same that happens in a motel 6, run faster out the front door

  12. #32
    Administrator fatboy's Avatar
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    you a funny guy cda........
    Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in mud, pretty soon you realize that the pig is enjoying it!

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  13. #33
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    Well not to many other choices

  14. #34
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    Some people still live in one room houses. Even though the code does not seem to like them

  15. #35
    Sawhorse Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
    I think Mark has the right idea with this picture. "2009 IRC, definitions. Mezzanine, Loft. An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story with an aggregate floor area of not more than one-third of the area of the room or space in which the level or levels, are located." It is NOT a bedroom and does not require separate emergency egress. Uncle Bob
    By definition the loft is not another room, or a bedroom; it is part of the room or space in which the level or levels are located. Some are using emotional arguments to force people to apply codes that are not applicable. A loft is "part of a room"; not a room. You can have a loft in your bedroom if the ceiling is high enough.
    Last edited by Uncle Bob; June 29th, 2013 at 14:48.
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  16. #36
    Sawhorse ICE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
    I think Mark has the right idea with this picture. "2009 IRC, definitions. Mezzanine, Loft. An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story with an aggregate floor area of not more than one-third of the area of the room or space in which the level or levels, are located." It is NOT a bedroom and does not require separate emergency egress. Uncle Bob
    The only place that I can find mezzanine or loft in the IRC is the definition that Mark posted. The only obvious reason for the definition is to limit the size of a mezzanine or loft.

    The only parameter given in the definition is a size limit.

    The argument is made that a loft could not be a room because there is not a continuous perimeter of walls. Ergo, no EERO required without a sleeping "room". I haven't found a reason in the code to accept that.

    I look at this question of an EERO not as one answered by semantics but rather life/safety.

    So let's add a wall to the loft. Hey now, there is a room and it's labeled bedroom (nobody calls them sleeping rooms)
    Okay folks add fire. The stairs are ablaze at midnight. How awful is that? Well not too bad because the lucky bastard woke up in a sleeping room and there is an EERO.

    Now let's take away the wall and turn the space back into a loft. Who Ya gonna call. He should start with the fire dept. because he was dumb enough to wake up in a "not a sleeping room" that's labeled bedroom without an EERO.

    So far, I haven't seen any compelling argument either way. That being the case I would be inclined to require an EERO unless the building had been approved as is. The building in question is being moved into the city so it shall comply as if it were new.
    Last edited by ICE; June 29th, 2013 at 01:42.

  17. #37
    Sawhorse Uncle Bob's Avatar
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    Ice, You have just provided a good example of what I stated in my post, just before yours. But lets take your assumption that a loft must meet the requirements of a bedroom. Your “loft” would require the following, according to the 2009 IRC;
    1. You would be required to build a stairway (could not have a ladder) that meets the egress requirements R311.7. The stairway would have to have a landing at the top and bottom, a headroom of not less than 6’8” and have a light switch at the top and bottom. That will greatly diminish the area of the room the loft is in.
    2. You would have to add arc-fault protected receptacles in the loft (because you are calling it a bedroom); receptacles installed so no space is more than 6’ from a receptacle; including along the railings, if any. Oops, almost forgot a switch-controlled light outlet in the loft.
    3. The loft would have to have a headroom of not less than 7 feet, and since it’s a bedroom the loft must be not less than 70 sq. ft.; with no part of the “required” space less than 5 ft. in height.
    4. The loft would also have to have a separate smoke alarm.
    4. And, of course the emergency escape and rescue opening (window) requirement.
    The above are some of the requirements for a bedroom; and not a loft which by definition is within a room. A loft is not, by definition a room; it is a raised area within a room, and should be observed no differently than a raised floor area within a room. I agree that a room with a loft used for sleeping should meet the requirements for sleeping area; but not the loft as a separate room; because it is not a separate room. It is a raised area within a room.
    It isn't what we don't know that causes most of our problems; it's what we do know that ain't so.

  18. #38
    Sawhorse Francis Vineyard's Avatar
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    6. Install sprinkler system where adopted.
    7. Chapter 11!




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  20. #40
    Sawhorse ICE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cda View Post
    I see bedrooms with with a raised bed.
    Note that mezzanine and loft are given the same definition in the code.
    They are an intermediate level wholly contained within a room or space.
    A mattress on a platform hardly constitutes an intermediate level.
    An intermediate level is floor space, not furniture.

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