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Bar/Tavern help

Discussion in 'Commercial Mechanical Codes' started by Sean, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. Sean

    Sean Registered User

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    Another question.
    Can exaust and intake ducting be outside the side of building, and then run up to gain extra clearance? Or do that have to come out where the actual end of vent will be?if I could go up externally I would be able to easily gain clearance. I’m sure the building owner would even let me build some kind of wood cover so it looks as part of building construction. This would be an easily solution for me, which means it’s probably not allowed haha.
     
  2. Sean

    Sean Registered User

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    The HVAC system (which is really just a furnace) was not used for a bar/tavern before. There’s all sorts of problems with how it was installed, but luckily for me the building owner is taking cost of that along with the CO2 intake part for heating the space. However, the building owner doesn’t having them moving fast and inspector won’t issue my permits to build until it’s taken care of along with the kitchen exhaust and make up air.

    So if I’m reading this correctly no matter what the exhaust make up air has to be tied in through HVAC? Or am I misunderstanding? It would be easier if allowed to tie the exhaust and make up together with a thermostat that has them both click on at same time. I appreciate all the help and understand the use of it is my discretion and and wouldn’t try to hold anybody accountable, it will just help me speed things up with mechanical contractor building owner hired.
     
    BayPointArchitect likes this.
  3. BayPointArchitect

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    To ensure that there is adequate clearance for both exhaust and vent, there are several options for how this is routed. But the number of elbows, diameter of the duct, and overall length of the duct, air velocity, and static pressure are all calculated together to ensure that you will be happy with the long-term performance and easy maintenance. And that is why the fees for a mechanical engineer are a justified expense. The HVAC contractor can sometimes do the math but they are biased towards making their job easier and selling you the materials that they already have inside their utility van. Sometimes the HVAC contractor and engineer work together to design something that works really well, easy to install, and does not cost too much.

    No. The Make Up Air does not need to be tied to the main HVAC system. It is sometimes cheaper to do it that way but it may not be practical if the existing furnace and air conditioner are insufficient for a bar / tavern. Most of the projects that I work on, there is a separate kitchen exhaust fan and a separate make up air unit. These are typically located on the roof top and separated from each other by a distance of ten feet. These are not controlled by a thermostat but they do "click on at the same time". In other words, they are "interlocked". Most systems that I deal with are moving 2,000 cfm of air through the kitchen exhaust hood and an equal 2,000 cfm being sucked into the make up air unit. But if the fan for your fryer is only 400 cfm, then I do not understand why you make reference to 800 cfm or more. In any case, a small make up air unit with only 400 cfm or 800 cfm should be available for something around $1,000. That is certainly a lot less than the typical kitchen exhaust and make up air system for $30,000.

    The only practical reason for having a thermostat is to ensure that the air flowing through the make up air unit is either cooled or heated before being introduced into the building. Again I say that the make up air unit does not turn on unless the exhaust fan is turned on.
     
  4. Tim Mailloux

    Tim Mailloux Registered User

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    You stated the AutoFry machine is exempt from the hood requirements because it has an integrated ansul system. But what about the MultiChef Oven and Panini grill? Are you sure they are also exempt from requiring a hood? They may not need a type 1 hood, but they may need a type 2 hood.

    You also need to look into the energy code impacts on the exhaust / make up air. If your pulling out a lot of exhaust air you may be required to provide some sort of heat recovery on that exhaust air.
     
  5. Sean

    Sean Registered User

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    So I decided to change my route and go cold sandwiches route and a microwave to try to prevent needed exhaust and Make-up Air, and to get open and get cash flow to fix the exhaust problem later.
    Dishwasher is low temp undercounter, so don’t create much steam these days, and are supposed to be exempt from needing hood systems or exhaust. Can anyone tell me if the interpretation of the Oregon mechanical code 507, where it uses the word “cooking appliance”. Does that mean an appliance that actually COOKS food rather than reheating it? Is a microwave actually considered a “cooking device”. Even with it the requirements to exhaust would be 300 CFM or even less, is there a threshold of where the required amount is to small to require the exhaust? Thanks for helping me understand the language these words actually represent.
     
  6. Sean

    Sean Registered User

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    It has a integral exhaust system as well which exhaust through a charcoal filter. They have been around for over 10 years and are built for the industry with the intention of no hood system or exhaust. For small food establishments, gas stations, etcetera. I can’t figure out why a small domestic panini grill that does one sandwich at a time would need a hood system. It’s essentially a toaster, would a toaster require hood? When food is less than 30 percent of sales, but food is required, your talking maybe 20-40 meals a day. Think of the ovens subway restaurants use, that’s a TurboChef which doesn’t require hood and is very similar to MultiChef. Quiznos used conveyor toasters, which don’t require hood. The food I’m trying to do is done with similar equipment, but cause inspector has never had to deal with it in our small town, he doesn’t understand how it all works.
     
  7. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    Not on that side but no exhaust should be needed

    Look at a Starbucks and how they warm stuff
     
  8. mp25

    mp25 Registered User

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    The 2006 IMC did not require a type 2 hood for a single electric light duty microwave oven if the heat/moisture generated by those unhooded appliances was considered in the HVAC load calculations (507.2.2, exception 3). This section has been removed in subsequent codes, I've recently been reading the IPMC and section 403.3 stats that devices such as coffee pots and microwave ovens shall not be considered cooking appliances.

    I agree with CDA. I've done a few restaurants with microwaves and never installed a hood over them.

    The turbochef that is used by some of the stores you mentioned has a built in catalytic filtration type device that limits the output of grease, that is why it is generally exempt. You are also limited to the type of foods that can be cooked for it to maintain its ventless certification.
     

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