• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

New Member, 10 years serious, 10 years prior learning

Thank you.
BTW, asking a union friend to ask his contractor friends how they deal wtih the City when they get like this.
The response was there are three cities (used to be two) out of the 81 in this county who Contractors refuse work rather than deal with the building departments of those cities. Some of those contractors might do the work without a permit on Saturday as a subcontractor. But they refuse to work under a permit. The third city got the "do not work there" status after Mr. Mudd retired due to a conflict with the new mayor after Covid.
 
Have you appealed to the local appeals board? If so, does Missouri have a state code appeals board that can override a local appeals board?
 
Yes, the local appeals board is appointed by the commissioner targeting me. Previously their actual finding was "You just need to learn to obey the building inspector, if you make them made you have to deal with the results"... total 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th and 14th violations.

I have requested the city code appeals board, city board of adjustment (zoning but also regulations, spelled out under state law), and even the city's human rights commission as Missouri Constitution art 1 sect 2 spells out that the city has violated my inalienable right to enjoy the gains of my own industry... thus the city fails in its chief design.

The City refuses to acknolwledge that I have requested the hearings in email and personal service. Next step is certified mail requests.

I will do any reasonable thing to get along. But they already clearly told me that they will just keep changing the goalposts so I cannot fix the roof.
 
Is this just a rant? Or do you have a specific question?
OK, the question: When you have a city building department that is way out of bounds (currently cant get a permit to put up drywall in two rooms).
What is the next steps when the city refuses to issue permits?

Am I correct that the city is completely unreasonable to require engineering specs for drywall screws and such. When I have a professional drywall team coming in to drywall two rooms.

After the last Building inspector retired due to a conflict with the city (he was awesome and professional) . The city is possibly retaliating against me because I had some terrible contractors doing work there during Covid... the contractors moved in without my knowledge.

But this is one of three cities in my county (since Robert retired) where contractors will not do work if they have to deal with the city. Most just hear the City's name and declare themselves unavailable for six (6) months.

so the question is: what do other contractors do when the City just refuses to issue a building permit? or is this just another insane problem unique to my county In my county 6 cities have been ordered in 2023 to refund all traffic fines back to 2011 due to the illegal conduct of the cities (revenue traffic enforcement). There is a US Senator who's career was elevated due to state legislation he authored in 2016/2017 to try and get control the cities in my county after one of them (Ferguson) got national attention for its abuses. One of the two laws addressed extreme abuses of my county's code enforcement.
 
Am I correct that the city is completely unreasonable to require engineering specs for drywall screws and such. When I have a professional drywall team coming in to drywall two rooms.
I'm having a difficult time believing your stories. Everybody has a boss and there can't be two people in a room at the same time that would ask for something that stupid. Apparently you were well aware of the idiocy called a building department yet you inquired about a permit for drywall in a couple of bedrooms. You brought the evil upon yourself.
 
Last edited:
Hurts to say it, but ICE is right. Building Department answers to someone, who then also answers to someone..........etc, etc, etc. Go to the media if it is that bad.
 
Yes, the local appeals board is appointed by the commissioner targeting me. Previously their actual finding was "You just need to learn to obey the building inspector, if you make them made you have to deal with the results"... total 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th and 14th violations.

I have requested the city code appeals board, city board of adjustment (zoning but also regulations, spelled out under state law), and even the city's human rights commission as Missouri Constitution art 1 sect 2 spells out that the city has violated my inalienable right to enjoy the gains of my own industry... thus the city fails in its chief design.

The City refuses to acknolwledge that I have requested the hearings in email and personal service. Next step is certified mail requests.

I will do any reasonable thing to get along. But they already clearly told me that they will just keep changing the goalposts so I cannot fix the roof.

OK, so let's clarify a few things here. They are all questions, some in the form of a statement.
  1. Your complaint is specific to the City of St. Lous, MO, not St. Louis County or any other municipality, correct?
  2. It sounds to me like you are a landlord with multiple rental properties, correct?
  3. Maybe, and just maybe your are both a landlord and house flipper.
  4. Not all your issues are building codes concerning renovation, some of these issues are code compliance / property maintenance issues.
  5. Exactly what kind of a licensed, professional engineer are you? Your posts lead me to believe you have no construction related experience.
  6. So, the inspectors, their supervisors, the building official and the local appeals board are all out to get you for no reason?
Now for a generic statement. In my experience with building codes and regulations, I've observed that occasionally, individuals may come into these processes with preconceived notions about government regulations and authorities. While it's understandable to have personal views, it's important to recognize that building departments, including officials and inspectors, are guided by a commitment to public safety and adherence to established codes. In a city with a substantial population, such as over 300,000 residents, it would be highly unusual and improbable for an entire department to single out one individual. This suggests that the challenges faced might be less about targeted actions and more about the complexities and demands of complying with stringent regulations. Navigating these codes often requires a balanced understanding and a willingness to engage constructively with the regulatory processes. Remember, these guidelines are in place not to hinder but to ensure the safety and legality of all building projects
 
Have you appealed to the local appeals board? If so, does Missouri have a state code appeals board that can override a local appeals board?
I will look into that. These cities are generally too small to have thier own appeals board. So I will look into the state appeals board.. thank you
 
1. You have it backwards, I don't have any business dealings in the City of St Louis. Contractors like working in the City of St Louis. (which is not part of STL County, it's its own county). STL City is one of the 4 surrounding counties without the problem.
Its really about 20 of the 25 north county cities that get most of the complaints, three cities in particular (up from 2, 2 years ago). And I only own homes in a few cities.
I have had some inspectors thank me for my work being superior to most landlords in their area, and actual try to have a professional non-confrontational business relationship. I actually had one ask me if I would buy a couple of problem properties and "do the same thing to those".

These cities are 24,000, 12,000, 8,000 and 3,000. They have one or two inspectors.

2. Yes, landlord.
I rehabilitate them, then rent them in working class or middle class neighborhoods.
2a.. As a new "occupancy inspection" and "occupancy permit" is require by these cities anytime anyone other than a new baby moves into a residential unit.

3. Just a landlord after rehabbing properties. I have not sold any houses in 25 years.

4. 90% of my "code enforcement issues is "tall grass" or overgrowth. Eastern Missouri has insane growth. Especially during covid, when I was injured and my lawn tractor broke, with numerous vacant properties...perfect storm. I begged forgiveness until my brand new "john deere" was delivered (had to be ordered).

I had two other issues, one is being litigated as they massive abatement my property without cause and without any notice, warnings, citations or warrants. Police body cams show that my property was in compliance, but the 4 surrounding properties were not.

5. I never claimed I was a PE. Due to my experience, if I wanted to be a PE, I just take 2 classes, file for a license, and get malpractice insurance with little benefit for it. I said I was an ABET accredited engineer. I worked as an Engineer for US Government (military and space) and private industry for over 30 years.

Statute 327 says City Inspectors must be or be supervised by a PE, they are not.

6. No, they are not all out to get me. I get along well with more than a few. The ones I have issue with are unreasonable to all, but when I say no to the bully they get really mean and it gets personal. 14th amendment defines the guardrails there.

In my home city, the prior Commissioner of Community Development was widely hated for the unreasonableness of his department. It became personal for him when I stood up to him and said I was not going to allow them to apply "special inspection" retaliation against me for a nonsensical violation (14th amendment violation). I deserved a $200 ticket unless I comply, not permanent condemnation of the house for frivolous reasons. His replacement is cut from the same cloth. The "appeal" board had never been convened before, and their official finding was that I just needed to learn to "get along" with Commissioner Garlock , like everyone else has to. They determined that the Commissioner was the law, not the building code, and not the City ordinance. He had a reputation for targeting owners who had to abandon their property or sell it at fire sale pricing to someone like me, who has not relationship with the seller.

Near my home, my neighbor was unable to move into their turnkey home for 3 months because the prior owner used wood screws instead of drywall screws for a semi-finished basement. And the city inspectors declare that NO basements qualify as "living space" even though almost all have two exits. But still made them replace every wood screw with a drywall screw (along the outer basement wall) before they could move into their own home. I ran into similar with the house I live in. They failed the move in inspection (occupancy inspection) and would not let me move in for three months unless the "natural gas" system was certified by a private inspector to meet the 2010 standard in a house that had not been updated since the house was built in 1956. That absolutely violates the "international existing building code". The gas company who is super strict due to liability had already passed the house and turned on the gas.

The other city who won't give me a drywall permit. What reasons can you give justifying preventing a homeowner from getting a drywall permit for two rooms replacing existing wall and ceiling drywall? Many cities don't require a permit to replace existing drywall. Two years ago, that city did not require a permit to replace drywall. And how is that a compelling health and safety issue (the legal standard)?

In the next county, my girlfriend's contractor got his permits for a major kitchen remodel on the same day in a large city in the next county, along with electrical permits to move electrical outlets in the remodeled kitchen. That city did not require drywall permits.
In another city here, they did not require me to get permits for siding, drywall, kitchen cabinets.

But my question to you is: Do you feel that code officers and building inspectors who are not engineers SHOULD BE ABLE to make law and building code on the spot? or should they have to follow the law by citing the building code or the ordinance they are purporting to enforce if there is a question?


We have a well-documented problem in St Louis County with governments who operates outside the law. After Ferguson, the Legislature, the Missouri Supreme Court and the Justice Department all said, this has gone too far and over the protests of the municipal league went after the problems in STL County.
After Ferguson, the Missouri Supreme Court investigated and found that St Louis County (and no other counties in Missouri) have extreme issues with the cities and the city courts.
The Missouri Supreme Court took the unheard-of steps to hire two permanent full-time investigators to investigate allegations of judicial and prosecutorial misconduct in St Louis County. In all Missouri, the Supreme Court's blue ribbon panel ONLY received complaints about St Louis County's 21st circuit, and the panel was appalled at the nature of the complaints and the numbers of complaints (many hundreds) about the cities and their courts.

US Senator Eric Schmitt had me testify on his reining in St Louis County's cities code enforcement Missouri Senate Bill 572 (when he was state senator), which passed with bipartisan support because of the abusive code enforcement (not building inspectors) in more than a few of St Louis County's cities. Some cities were using traffic and code enforcement to fund over 90% of their budget.

US Justice Department identified and wanted to roll up on all 24 North County cities due to abusive traffic and code enforcement, but Washington reached out and set a guardrail of "just Ferguson". (I believe Obama administration limited Justice Dept as they were targeting Democrat cities)

Now, in 2023, 6 cities are forced to refund all traffic fines going back to 2011 because the cities, their judges, their prosecutor and their police were violating the law with abusive revenue enforcement (writing traffic tickets for fun and profit). In 2024 I expect Arch City Defenders to add more Cities to the consent decree. Arch City Defenders has gone after north county cities for abusive code enforcement against the poor.
 
4. 90% of my "code enforcement issues is "tall grass" or overgrowth. Eastern Missouri has insane growth. Especially during covid, when I was injured and my lawn tractor broke, with numerous vacant properties...perfect storm. I begged forgiveness until my brand new "john deere" was delivered (had to be ordered).
Which is why, as I suspected, this belongs in the Code Compliance / Code Enforcement section of the forum. We can discuss the inability of landlords to maintain their property there. Moving it now.
 
As a only if I can cite it from the code inspector, I find a lot of contractors who do not want to get permits, do not want to take the time to properly submit permit applications, sufficient drawings, plan for sufficient time for application processing and do not want to follow the code requirements for various reasons.

I have problems with inspectors who make up codes or "Because I say so" enforcement.

I find there are two classes and two subclasses of contractor

1) The ones who want to do things right, by Code, if not better and
a) Know the codes, may have taken courses, and rarely -if ever- make mistakes. If they do, they fix them pronto. (15-20% of the total)
b) Know some codes, and are open/willing to learn; will fix mistakes and not make them again (30-35% of the total)

2) The ones who think they know the code, but don't and
a) are stunned to find out they've been doing things wrong, and will resist any change (20-30%)
b) don't give a crap. (20-25%)

Oddly enough, the (2)(b) variety are always the ones who want to blame the building inspector, not themselves. They rarely get permits, are pissed when they are caught building without one, frequently underbid jobs because they can't get jobs on reputation, and leave a wake of chaos behind them.
 
About the roof. Not sure how bad it is. Here you can do an emergency repair as long as you apply for a permit in 3 days. If you had your trusses and all supplies on hand, can you do it in 3 days? It would be crazy to deny you a permit and then fine you for not having a permit.

I think most repair projects start before they get a permit here.
 
Top