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Commercial Kitchen in attached garage

Buelligan

Buelligan

Registered User
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Messages
124
Location
Eastern Panhandle WV
Well I am just making sure I have this right before I tell the home owner he needs sprinklers in the whole house.

A catering business wants to put commercial type equipment in his garage and use it to prepare food for their catering business. No employees and no public.

First questions, does anything on the IRC prohibit the installation of this equipment? Or does the fact that it is and will be used in a commercial sense require IBC compliance?

I feel that it does require IBC and therefor trying to fit it into the section 419 Live/Work Units. Would this be appropriate in your opinions?

Now here is how I understand this section.

419.1 General - He meets all the requirements for this to qualify, no problem.

419.2 Occupancies.

Live/work units shall be classified as a Group R-2 occupancy. - OK got this it's and R-2 now

419.3 and .4 MOE and Vertical Openings - Ok all good here, no problem

419.5 Fire protection.

The live/work unit shall be provided with a monitored fire alarm system where required by Section 907.2.9 and an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.2.8. - So based on this they will need to install a monitored alarm AND a sprinkler system?

After looking into 907 and 903 I see no exceptions that would apply to this situation. The problem we have is that Zoning has what they call "Cottage Industry" which allows these "Home Businesses". Then we become the bad guy against the home owner trying to make ends meet! They don't seem to understand that the codes are either residential or commercial, there is no "grey area" where the two can live in harmony. I once thought the 419 section sort of addressed this until I had to review one and now I see that a sprinkler and alarm system are required. That puts a HUGE dent in the budget for most and is not really feasible.

The other big sticking point is the whole first level requirement. Most of these "Home Businesses" want to use the basement and when more than 50% is below grade it can't be considered first level, right?

So how do you guys handle these "Home Businesses" in you jurisdictions? Some of the examples we are reviewing now are

1) Tanning Salon - in the basement

2) Massage Therapist - in the basement

3) Commercial Kitchen - in attached garage

4) Commercial Kitchen - in a detached storage building (drop off shed)

5) Tattoo shop - basement or first floor

Most of these exceed the 10% rule for Home Office by the way.

HELP!
 
Does your "Cottage Industry" ordinance say if they have to comply with ibc or Irc

Have not seen one but

2009 says

419.5 Fire protection. The live/work unit shall be provided with a monitored fire alarm system where required by Section 907.2.9 and an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.2.8.

903.2.8 Group R. An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area. [F]

Appears required?
 
Yeah but think of all of the money they are saving on "commercial rent"....it takes money to make money.....they are going to have to sprinkler their house soon anyway....might as well get it over with while they can write it off.....
 
Not sure if you can use the Live/Work units for an exciting building. It is only for new buildings so you have to go to chapter 34 "Existing Buildings" and the Cange of Occupancy section 3408 or use the IEBC. You still will need the whole building sprinklered because the garage would be "B" and the rest of the house would become "R-2".

3401.1 Scope. The provisions of this chapter shall control the alteration, repair, addition and change of occupancy of existing structures

Notice the word "shall"

3401.4 Alternative compliance. you can use the IEBC
 
Has anyone here ever dealt with a live/work unit. I don't know how it gives you any breaks compared to a mixed B/R-2 building.

If they stopped using it as a live/work unit or if someone buys it and only uses it as a residential home would they have to go though a Change of Occupancy?
 
R101.2 Scope. The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

Exception: Live/work units complying with the requirements of Section 419 of the International Building Code shall be permitted to be built as one- and two-family dwellings or townhouses. Fire suppression required by Section 419.5 of the International Building Code when constructed under the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall conform to Section 903.3.1.3 of the International Building Code.
 
IBC 419.2 Occupancies.

Live/work units shall be classified as a Group R-2 occupancy. - otherwise known as residential

So this is a residential accessory structure or maybe even an attached garage. It may be required meet a section of the IBC, but the IRC still applies to everything else.

IRC M1901.2 Cooking appliances.

Cooking appliances shall be listed and labeled for household use and shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

The main issues here are clearance to combustibles and combustion air / make up air. Commercial cooking appliances don't have the insulation of residential appliances and are also have a much higher BTU input rating. Instead of worrying about sprinklers and fire protection, prevent the fire in the first place.

The only options I see are to build the entire garage as a commercial kitchen based on the requirements of the IBC or install appliances listed for residential use.
 
or install appliances listed for residential use

so I need to take my commerical grade stove out of my house??
 
cda, my state (PA) doesn't use the first chapter of the IRC, it replaced it and it doesn't mention live/work units. And we don't require sprinklers in homes. So thanks anyway.

I still would like other opinions if you can use the live/work section for existing buildings.

3401.1 Scope. The provisions of this chapter shall control the alteration, repair, addition and change of occupancy of existing structures

Notice the word "shall"

3401.4 Alternative compliance. you can use the IEBC
 
cda said:
or install appliances listed for residential useso I need to take my commerical grade stove out of my house??
Click to expand...
Here, you could keep your commercial stove if it were installed according to the MII's and IMC provisions for the equipment.
 
Rick18071 said:
cda, my state (PA) doesn't use the first chapter of the IRC, it replaced it and it doesn't mention live/work units. And we don't require sprinklers in homes. So thanks anyway.
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You need to double check the PA UCC. Chapter 1 of the IBC is not adopted. The entire IRC (2009 Edition) is adopted with the only appendix adopted being G. Then there are the changes made to the IRC by the UCC. But, Chapter 1 of the IRC is adopted by L&I as part of the standards.
 
Use Chapter 13 of the IEBC for a simple solution. Obviously you will want to separate the occupancies in order to avoid the sprinkler requirements in the residence

1301.2.2 Partial change in occupancy.

Where a portion of the building is changed to a new occupancy classification and that portion is separated from the remainder of the building with fire barrier wall assemblies having a fire-resistance rating as required by Table 508.4 of the International Building Code or Section R317 of the International Residential Code for the separate occupancies, or with approved compliance alternatives, the portion changed shall be made to conform to the provisions of this section.

Where a portion of the building is changed to a new occupancy classification and that portion is not separated from the remainder of the building with fire separation assemblies having a fire-resistance rating as required by Table 508.4 of the International Building Code or Section R317 of the International Residential Code for the separate occupancies, or with approved compliance alternatives, the provisions of this section which apply to each occupancy shall apply to the entire building. Where there are conflicting provisions, those requirements which secure the greater public safety shall apply to the entire building or structure.
 
101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal and demolition of every building or structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures.

Appears applies
 
Rick18071 said:
So everyone agrees a live/work unit can only be a new building?
Click to expand...
I don't think it is as definitive as that. I believe the IEBC has options in lieu of that section.

Same for sprinklers Section 903.2 is for new structures you have to find the charging language that directs you to 903.2 before it is applicable to an existing building that has a change of occupancy or addition or modification being done.

[F] 903.2 Where required.

Approved automatic sprinkler systems in new buildings and structures shall be provided in the locations described in Sections 903.2.1 through 903.2.12.
 
Rick18071 said:
So everyone agrees a live/work unit can only be a new building?
Click to expand...
Sorry but I do not see where it only applies to NEW construction.

The scope of chapter 4 does not say NEW structures and the Scope of the IBC covers alterations, change of use and additions.

So could you please draw a line to the language that states NEW work only? I just don't see it.
 
So when the section 419.5 specifically refers to ONLY 903.2.8 and not the entire section, we can apply 903.2 also? I guess I was assuming that when 903.2.8 is the only reference, then ONLY THAT section essentially become an addition to 419.5.

Do I have that wrong? I guess I read it as 419.5 required the sprinklers and 903.2.8 was referenced so as not to repeat the language. If that is not the case then why not just reference ALL OF 903 and not just the Group R section?

Im not trying to be difficult but I will bombarded with these questions, so I am looking to be VERY clear here. Thanks
 
Buelligan said:
So when the section 419.5 specifically refers to ONLY 903.2.8 and not the entire section, we can apply 903.2 also? I guess I was assuming that when 903.2.8 is the only reference, then ONLY THAT section essentially become an addition to 419.5. Do I have that wrong? I guess I read it as 419.5 required the sprinklers and 903.2.8 was referenced so as not to repeat the language. If that is not the case then why not just reference ALL OF 903 and not just the Group R section?

Im not trying to be difficult but I will bombarded with these questions, so I am looking to be VERY clear here. Thanks
Click to expand...
I would say yes once a fire sprinkler system is required , than all of 903 that is relevant to that occupancy type applies
 
Buelligan

As a AHJ it is not our responsibility to classify an occupancy use group for a project. The designer/owner should do that. however when a DP is not involved it makes our job more complicated.

Just because you have a commercial use in the same building as a residence does not automatically require the use of 419 live/work units

419.2 states separations are not required if the design is in compliance with 419

508.1 exception 3 re-iterates that if you are not in compliance with 419 then they are separate occupancies

Even if your jurisdiction has not adopted the IEBC you can still use it.

IBC Section 3401.5 is where you go for the charging language to use the IEBC.

3401.5 Alternative compliance.

Work performed in accordance with the International Existing Building Code shall be deemed to comply with the provisions of this chapter.

As I pointed out in post #12 there are other options that do not require sprinklers throughout the residence.
 
mtlogcabin said:
BuelliganAs a AHJ it is not our responsibility to classify an occupancy use group for a project.
Click to expand...
But do you agree that it is our job to approve or not approve the proposed occupancy group?
 
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