I have a situation where a modular home that at the time of on site construction, had staple up hydronic heat tube installed under the first floor on site. This took place prior to my illustrious career starting for this jurisdiction. I came in at the tail end of the project and failed to visually inspect the crawlspace "assuming" bad idea/ word in this line of work) that the previous inspector had already looked at this area during a previous insulation inspection. Turns out that he didn't either and as a result the installer cheaped out on the floor insulation over the unconditioned crawlspace by installing R-9 foil faced where R-30 was required at that time and got away with it. Now the homeowner is suffering the consequences. The lack of proper insulation(none in some of the areas) in the floor joist cavities is causing the owners to have to crank their thermostat to maintain 70 degrees in their house. So my question to the forum is, who is to blame? Me, the contractor, or the previous inspector? If it is the contractor who is now long gone/bankrupt/MIA does the homeowner have any retribution? If it is me do I get away with saying "sorry I missed that" and move on? Thanks in advance for any advice you all may have.
-
Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades
Lack of floor insulation missed at final inspection. Who's to blame?
- Thread starter Coder
- Start date
ICE
Oh Well
The contractor is responsible for all aspects of the work. Inspectors are responsible for inspecting the work. Contractors can be held liable for omissions and mistakes but an inspector can't unless it can be proved that there was malice aforethought.
If the insulation was signed off, I wouldn't be looking at it. I don't crawl but I stick a camera in the hole and get a few pictures. What is the depth of the floor joists?
If the insulation was signed off, I wouldn't be looking at it. I don't crawl but I stick a camera in the hole and get a few pictures. What is the depth of the floor joists?
Last edited by a moderator:
Only for my wife.:lol: I too took pictures and stated to the homeowner that I was sorry that this happened. Not much else can be done now other than he fixes it himself. To answer your question, the web joists, not I-joists or nominal lumber, are approximately 12" I want to say (eyeball measurement. I will post pictures tomorrow. Thanks for the replies.ICE said:
Also wanted to mention that if I had "crawled" in the crawlspace, this situation could have been averted. Too easy to just take their word for it at the final and move on. Not enough attention is given to this area of a dwelling unit in my opinion.Mr.Inspector said:
ICE
Oh Well
Probably true. It's easy enough to tell the contractor to bring out some of the insulation.Mr.Inspector said:
Last edited by a moderator:
steveray
SAWHORSE
Is the contractor responsible?..... Or the manufacturer?
JBI
Registered User
Manufacturers will include the floor insulation if it is part of the order but not necessarily as a matter of routine. Who ordered the home? Did the order request floor insulation? If it was ordered and not provided then the manufacturer should provide and install it.
Assuming it was not part of the order, IMHO, the contractor should be responsible. Since he is incommunicado (per the OP), it will regrettably fall on the homeowner to add it. It sucks. But it's also a relatively cheap fix that will save the homeowner that cost many times over in only a short amount of time.
Assuming it was not part of the order, IMHO, the contractor should be responsible. Since he is incommunicado (per the OP), it will regrettably fall on the homeowner to add it. It sucks. But it's also a relatively cheap fix that will save the homeowner that cost many times over in only a short amount of time.
I am going to formalize the situation in writing and provide the homeowner with a copy. He can pursue resolve with the contractor if he so chooses to do so. Homeowner told me another bad he discovered. Their dryer vent was just dumped into the crawlspace. Homeowner had already fixed that. Unfortunate deal for them. Glad that dillweed who did this crap isn't building houses around here anymore.
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
Buyer beware shoulda coulda woulda had a contingent home inspection having E&O insurance if CO has it.
Builder Bob
Sawhorse
If it is a true modular home in our state, the local AHJ is hands off except for foundation, steps, skirting, and point of utility connections. Any alterations to the modular home from the factory would require it to go back to the factory to be re-certified by the manufacture as a code compliant modular home.
From the State's Modular Homes Act
SECTION 23-43-110. Suspension or revocation of certification.
The council shall suspend or revoke, or cause to be suspended or revoked, the certification of any modular building unit which the council finds not to comply with this chapter or regulations promulgated by authority of this chapter, or which has been manufactured pursuant to a building system or compliance assurance program as to which approval has been suspended or revoked, or which has been altered after certification
From the State's Modular Homes Act
SECTION 23-43-110. Suspension or revocation of certification.
The council shall suspend or revoke, or cause to be suspended or revoked, the certification of any modular building unit which the council finds not to comply with this chapter or regulations promulgated by authority of this chapter, or which has been manufactured pursuant to a building system or compliance assurance program as to which approval has been suspended or revoked, or which has been altered after certification
I am going to upset everyone here. Obviously the contractor is at fault. If he was still in business, he would be expected to remedy the situation. I assume he had some kind of performance bond. The homeowner should have been advised to contact the bonding agent. But, 2 inspectors inspected the building and missed the problem. In my opinion, neither did the job they were expected to do. They should shoulder some of the blame.
End of post, let the flames begin.
End of post, let the flames begin.
steveray
SAWHORSE
You did good FG.....Everyone involved is to blame...who is liable gets decided by the courts...We have contractors here that start a new LLC every time they do a new project which makes it difficult to get to them....With manufactured housing, like BB said....most of it here should fall on them, unless their paperwork said that it was to be done in the field.....
TheCommish
Registered User
2009 IRC virgin language
R104.8 Liability. The building official, member of the board of appeals or employee charged with the enforcement of this code, while acting for the jurisdiction in good faith and without malice in the discharge of the duties required by this code or other pertinent law or ordinance, shall not thereby be rendered liable personally and is hereby relieved from personal liability for any damage accruing to persons or property as a result of any act or by reason of an act or omission in the discharge of official duties. Any suit instituted against an officer or employee because of an act performed by that officer or employee in the lawful discharge of duties and under the provisions of this code shall be defended by legal representative of the jurisdiction until the final termination of the proceedings.
R105.4 Validity of permit. The issuance or granting of a permit shall not be construed to be a permit for, or an approval of, any violation of any of the provisions of this code or of any other ordinance of the jurisdiction. Permits presuming to give authority to violate or cancel the provisions of this code or
other ordinances of the jurisdiction shall not be valid. The issuance of a permit based on construction documents and other data shall not prevent the building official from requiring the correction of errors in the construction documents and other data. The building official is also authorized to prevent occupancy
or use of a structure where in violation of this code or of any other ordinances of this jurisdiction. The building official or any subordinate shall not be liable for
cost in any action, suit or proceeding that is instituted in pursuance of the provisions of this code.
R105.8 Responsibility. It shall be the duty of every person who performs work for the installation or repair of building, structure, electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing systems, for which this code is applicable, to comply with this code.
R104.8 Liability. The building official, member of the board of appeals or employee charged with the enforcement of this code, while acting for the jurisdiction in good faith and without malice in the discharge of the duties required by this code or other pertinent law or ordinance, shall not thereby be rendered liable personally and is hereby relieved from personal liability for any damage accruing to persons or property as a result of any act or by reason of an act or omission in the discharge of official duties. Any suit instituted against an officer or employee because of an act performed by that officer or employee in the lawful discharge of duties and under the provisions of this code shall be defended by legal representative of the jurisdiction until the final termination of the proceedings.
R105.4 Validity of permit. The issuance or granting of a permit shall not be construed to be a permit for, or an approval of, any violation of any of the provisions of this code or of any other ordinance of the jurisdiction. Permits presuming to give authority to violate or cancel the provisions of this code or
other ordinances of the jurisdiction shall not be valid. The issuance of a permit based on construction documents and other data shall not prevent the building official from requiring the correction of errors in the construction documents and other data. The building official is also authorized to prevent occupancy
or use of a structure where in violation of this code or of any other ordinances of this jurisdiction. The building official or any subordinate shall not be liable for
cost in any action, suit or proceeding that is instituted in pursuance of the provisions of this code.
R105.8 Responsibility. It shall be the duty of every person who performs work for the installation or repair of building, structure, electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing systems, for which this code is applicable, to comply with this code.
ICE
Oh Well
Please move closer to the torch.fireguy said:
Inspectors never share the blame. Inspectors don't build it. If I miss something, I am not to blame because it's not there.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Why is everyone assuming an insulation inspection is even required?
Is there a record an insulation inspection was requested?
R109.3 Inspection requests. It shall be the duty of the permit holder or their agent to notify the building official that such work is ready for inspection. It shall be the duty of the person requesting any inspections required by this code to provide access to and means for inspection of such work.
Don't beat yourself up on this. Learn from it and move on. Is there some energy tax credits or power company grants the homeowner can apply for such as weatherization from HUD of local power/gas company to help defray the cost
Is there a record an insulation inspection was requested?
R109.3 Inspection requests. It shall be the duty of the permit holder or their agent to notify the building official that such work is ready for inspection. It shall be the duty of the person requesting any inspections required by this code to provide access to and means for inspection of such work.
Inspections are representative sampling s and if you had poked your head in or just took a picture with a camera you would have seen insulation and moved on
Don't beat yourself up on this. Learn from it and move on. Is there some energy tax credits or power company grants the homeowner can apply for such as weatherization from HUD of local power/gas company to help defray the cost
ICE
Oh Well
exactly...mtlogcabin said:
Jobsaver
Registered User
The builder, insulator, and inspectors are to blame. The permit holder is responsible.
jwilly3879
Sawhorse
I have had good results by contacting the manufacturer of the modular, the installer is acting as their agent and should be installing according to the installation documents provided with the home.
Shoddy installations are the biggest problem if have seen with modulars in my area. The last one I happened to catch while driving by, the were installing the vinyl siding on the gable end and I saw a large gap between the sections. They failed to install the foam strips before connecting the units and were just going to cover with vinyl. I requested they uncover the completed end and they refused so I contacted the dealer, who contacted the contractor, who called me a variety of names so I got ahold of the manufacturer and explained what a well constructed unit they built but their dealer and contractor were giving their brand a bad name.
Representative from the company showed up and I showed him some of the many problems. I asked the installers why they had a leftover box of threaded rod , washers and nuts in the basement and they responded , "What were they for?", I showed them on the construction documents that they were to join the sections together.
The manufacturer hired a local contractor to complete the installation.
I also have been able to convince a manufacturer to install a new roof on one unit that leaked like a sieve.
Some of the dealers around here are like used car salesman and the buyers think they are getting a complete home, ready to move into, forgetting about foundations, many lally columns they need to purchase and so on. I always recommend that they use a local contractor to oversee the installation but they are convinced the dealer will take care of that.
Shoddy installations are the biggest problem if have seen with modulars in my area. The last one I happened to catch while driving by, the were installing the vinyl siding on the gable end and I saw a large gap between the sections. They failed to install the foam strips before connecting the units and were just going to cover with vinyl. I requested they uncover the completed end and they refused so I contacted the dealer, who contacted the contractor, who called me a variety of names so I got ahold of the manufacturer and explained what a well constructed unit they built but their dealer and contractor were giving their brand a bad name.
Representative from the company showed up and I showed him some of the many problems. I asked the installers why they had a leftover box of threaded rod , washers and nuts in the basement and they responded , "What were they for?", I showed them on the construction documents that they were to join the sections together.
The manufacturer hired a local contractor to complete the installation.
I also have been able to convince a manufacturer to install a new roof on one unit that leaked like a sieve.
Some of the dealers around here are like used car salesman and the buyers think they are getting a complete home, ready to move into, forgetting about foundations, many lally columns they need to purchase and so on. I always recommend that they use a local contractor to oversee the installation but they are convinced the dealer will take care of that.