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Type NM-B Pulled In Before Building Dried In.

StevenLeuck

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
2
Location
Eugene, Oregon, United States
New to this forum. Trying to find information from other jurisdictions to hopefully persuade our AHJ to allow the installation of Type NM-B Nonmetallic Sheathed cable before the building is completely weather tight. I have sent them a detailed proposal for the reasons we believe it should be allowed and have attached it and most of it's backup documents together in a couple of PDF files here. Normally this isn't an issue but since Type NM-B has been approved for use in just about any number of stories based on building type what we're raced with now is a 7 story building that we can't even begin to start rough-in on until the roof is on and weather tight. Our local AHJ is keeping the door open to this but wants some more information other than what I have sent him so far. I was hoping I could get people on this forum to chime in with their experiences with this situation and also to let me know which jurisdictions they are currently working in who actually allow it. This could help persuade ours to do the same thing. Apparently there's a limit on file sizes that can be uploaded here so there are two my backup files that cannot be uploaded but which are referenced with URL's my first two PDF files. I look forward to hearing from as many people as possible on this. Every little bit helps.Steven LeuckContractors Electric, LLCEugene, ORView attachment 2217View attachment 2218View attachment 2219

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Sounds pretty "damp" to me, unless you are somewhere that it doesn't rain or this is in the interior of the building, away from open windows.
 
Define temporary. It might rain for weeks.

Has anyone conducted an experiment quite like what you propose?

If the AHJ says okay, they will have a hard time saying no to the next guy.

You would be able to say "Well they let me do it in XYZ City".

Silicone the ends is a hoot too.

One bad wire can burn the building down.

The IAEI article only requires more sophisticated testing (Dielectric Voltage‐Withstand Tests) after a 24 hourimmersion. Even after the most severe weather conditions possible during construction could our proposed installation

be considered to have been immersed.
Constantly wet is the same as immersion. If it rains for more than 24 hours, are you willing to test every wire. And since the fox is never allowed to be in charge of the chickens, a separate contractor would be required to do that testing.

As an inspector I will tell you that I would not allow a practice that could result in all of the cable being suspect.
 
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StevenLeuck,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum ! :cool:

( = = = = )
 
mark handler said:
Contact the manufacturer of the product
Have contacted Southwire but other than for a catalog submittal sheet that notes their PVC jacket as being "moisture resistant" they are not interested in going out on that limb for a code issue. I also tried researching ALL of the applicable codes and standards that NM-B is listed for with UL. Other than stating that PVC jacketing be impervious to water, there's nothing else in there to imply other than UL's own statements in their brochure that NM-B can get wet without having to replace it.
 
The issue with NM is water wicking up into the paper packing.

I suppose if time is worth more than money, you could always use UF.
 
There is a damp location NM (NM-C) AKA barn cable but I have never actually seen it. When you look it up on the wire manufacturer web sites, they sell you UF.
 
"We try not to allow it.....but have no good way to enforce it...."

About the time you reject a job that got wet, and force sparky to start over...........word spreads fast that you are serious..........
 
Write a guarantee, that you will guarantee that there will no electrical fires, based on the exposure of manufacted products that are not warrantied, bythe manufacture, for outside exposure.
 
I had a guy (longtime and fairly large builder in the area) call me the other day and say "Whaadaya mean you won't give me POCO clearnce to energize (service inspection) without the building being water tight? The guy before you did".....It's a big ship to turn around.....

fatboy said:
"We try not to allow it.....but have no good way to enforce it...."About the time you reject a job that got wet, and force sparky to start over...........word spreads fast that you are serious..........
 
steveray said:
I had a guy (longtime and fairly large builder in the area) call me the other day and say "Whaadaya mean you won't give me POCO clearnce to energize (service inspection) without the building being water tight? The guy before you did".....It's a big ship to turn around.....
If all wiring, boxes, fixtures, outlets, , switches, covers , excetra were labled and listed for exterior use, no problem
 
mark handler said:
If all wiring, boxes, fixtures, outlets, , switches, covers , excetra were labled and listed for exterior use, no problem
"We are going to put a tarp over it! Jeez! A guy can't make a buck anymore.....You are really holding up my project!"
 
steveray said:
"We are going to put a tarp over it! Jeez! A guy can't make a buck anymore.....You are really holding up my project!"
Ya, I've never see a tarp leek

Write a guarantee, that you will guarantee that there will no electrical fires, based on the exposure of manufactured products that are not warrantied, by the manufacture, for outside exposure.

Don't get ahead of yourself

I have had a contractor replace framing that became banana boards
 
StevenLeuck said:
New to this forum. Trying to find information from other jurisdictions to hopefully persuade our AHJ to allow the installation of Type NM-B Nonmetallic Sheathed cable before the building is completely weather tight. I have sent them a detailed proposal for the reasons we believe it should be allowed and have attached it and most of it's backup documents together in a couple of PDF files here. Normally this isn't an issue but since Type NM-B has been approved for use in just about any number of stories based on building type what we're raced with now is a 7 story building that we can't even begin to start rough-in on until the roof is on and weather tight.

Our local AHJ is keeping the door open to this but wants some more information other than what I have sent him so far. I was hoping I could get people on this forum to chime in with their experiences with this situation and also to let me know which jurisdictions they are currently working in who actually allow it. This could help persuade ours to do the same thing.

Apparently there's a limit on file sizes that can be uploaded here so there are two my backup files that cannot be uploaded but which are referenced with URL's my first two PDF files.

I look forward to hearing from as many people as possible on this. Every little bit helps.

Steven Leuck

Contractors Electric, LLC

Eugene, OR

View attachment 2217View attachment 2218View attachment 2219
We cant install nm either unless the building is sealed from weather. A little off subject but our local AHJ use to let us install the meter socket with the service panel installed with a panel receptacle for temporary power with a tarp covering it. Now if we set the service before the roof, framing and walls we have to set a combination meter socket and the house panel becomes a sub-panel.
 
Look at the definition of dry location. If the building has concrete floors between I don't see an issue on the lower floors even if there is no roof. This install is not generally saturated as nm when sitting in the back of pickups. It is definitely an authority having jurisdiction call but in general if the roof is on there should not be an issue

Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampnessor wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily

subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a

building under construction.
 
Dennis said:
Look at the definition of dry location. If the building has concrete floors between I don't see an issue on the lower floors even if there is no roof. This install is not generally saturated as nm when sitting in the back of pickups. It is definitely an authority having jurisdiction call but in general if the roof is on there should not be an issue
Unless there is horizontal Driving rain or wind-driven rain ....
 
\ \ \ \ \

Interesting topic **StevenLeuck** !.......You may have some luck

in providing a written statement to the AHJ [ in conjunction with

your Post # 6 ]........Write a concise statement providing the AHJ

the comments from the manufacturer and U.L. for them to review.

Whether they allow it or not is up to them........As part of their

process of determining whether or not the NM-B can be used in

your application, my guess is that they will contact surrounding

jurisdictions to see what they are allowing........Also, as **mark

handler** has suggested, are you willing to provide a blanket

warranty statement to the AHJ for this work ?

What is going to cost more, ...your reputation for doing work

correctly [ i.e. - removing the existing NM-B and rewiring the

structure now ], or possibly in the future when a warrant is

served on you for faulty wiring / damages / other.

Just saying, ...something to consider long term !

/ / / / / /
 
mark handler said:
Unless there is horizontal Driving rain or wind-driven rain ....
A one time or even a few times of driving rain will not affect NM cable. IMO, if it is saturated in water that is a different problem. Rain bouncing off it is not the real issue.
 
Dennis said:
A one time or even a few times of driving rain will not affect NM cable. IMO, if it is saturated in water that is a different problem. Rain bouncing off it is not the real issue.
All the BO is asking for is Proof, The Manufacturer will not say that, show me....
 
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