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Why a Group E

B

BSSTG

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
729
Location
Seadrift, Tx.
Greetings all,

This just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

09 IBC

308.5 Group I-4, day care facilities. This group shall include buildings and structures occupied by persons of any age who receive custodial care for less than 24 hours by individuals other than parents or guardians, relatives by blood, marriage or adoption, and in a place other than the home of the person cared for. A facility such as the above with five or fewer persons shall be classified as a Group R-3 or shall comply with the International Residential Code in accordance with Section 101.2. Places of worship during religious functions are not included.

Exception: A child day care facility that provides care for more than five but no more than 100 children 21/2 years or less of age, where the rooms in which the children are cared for are located on a level of exit discharge serving such rooms and each of these child care rooms has an exit door directly to the exterior, shall be classified as Group E.

This is the exception regarding Group I-4 daycare facilities. I don't get how caring for kids under 2 1/2 would differ from 5 year old kids under the same circumstances when a sprinkler system would be required for the 5 year olds and not the infants. That's just crazy. Or is it me that's crazy?

BSSTG
 
I don't think I understand....Where are you saying the 5 yr olds get sprinklers and infants don't?

903.2.6 Group I. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings with a Group I fire area. [F]

903.2.3 Group E. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for Group E occupancies as follows: [F]

1. Throughout all Group E fire areas greater than 12,000 square feet (1115 m2) in area.
 
I will assume the state licensing requirements for daycare with infants requires a higher caregiver to child ratio then older children.

Mt is 1 per 3 for infants/toddlers and I think it is 1 per 10 for older children. I assume other states have similar ratios
 
mtlogcabin said:
I will assume the state licensing requirements for daycare with infants requires a higher caregiver to child ratio then older children.Mt is 1 per 3 for infants/toddlers and I think it is 1 per 10 for older children. I assume other states have similar ratios
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Yea I thought about that. However, if that's the case, then why limit the exception to 100? I did look at the 2012 Code and that exception is still in there.

I will definately be asking some of the gurus at the BPI seminars in Houston next month about this very question.

BSSTG
 
The theory is that you can herd children over 2-1/2 out in groups mostly under own power. The little ones have to be carried or tossed out. Hence the reduced hazard when door is direct to outside. The exception used to be an exception to sprinklering I-2 under old clasification daycares but then it still needed rated construction so the exemption was changed to make them E use. The 100 kids is a long standing upper limit on risk.
 
steveray said:
I don't think I understand....Where are you saying the 5 yr olds get sprinklers and infants don't?903.2.6 Group I. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings with a Group I fire area. [F]

903.2.3 Group E. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for Group E occupancies as follows: [F]

1. Throughout all Group E fire areas greater than 12,000 square feet (1115 m2) in area.
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The deal is (according to the exception), that if the occupant load is under 100, and the children are under 2 1/2 years, the rooms have grade level egress out of each room and so forth, then the building is classified Group E and thereby is not required to get wet.

Conversely, all of the above being the same, except the kids are over 2 1/2 years, then the building is considered and I-4 and is required to get wet.

Sounds crazy to me. If anything I would think the building needs to get sprinklered for the infants since they would not be capable of self preservation. I dunno.

BSSTG
 
Hunh.....it would be an E here....if I am understanding correctly....

(Amd) 305.2 Day care. The use of a building or structure, or portion thereof, for educational, supervision or personal care services for less than 24 hours per day for more than six children older than 3 years of age, shall be classified as a Group E occupancy.
 
2009

The 100 applies to churches

305.1 Educational Group E. Educational Group E occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, by six or more persons at any one time for educational purposes through the 12th grade. Religious educational rooms and religious auditoriums, which are accessory to places of religious worship in accordance with Section 303.1 and have occupant loads of less than 100, shall be classified as Group A-3 occupancies.

305.2 Day care. The use of a building or structure, or portion thereof, for educational, supervision or personal care services for more than five children older than 21/2 years of age, shall be classified as a Group E occupancy.
 
Because of the door from EACH ROOM directly to the outside

Hay, take it up with the code cookers!!!

308.5.2 Child care facility. A facility that provides supervision and personal care on less than a 24-hour basis for more than five children 21/2 years of age or less shall be classified as Group I-4.

Exception: A child day care facility that provides care for more than five but no more than 100 children 21/2 years or less of age, where the rooms in which the children are cared for are located on a level of exit discharge serving such rooms and each of these child care rooms has an exit door directly to the exterior, shall be classified as Group E.
 
The dorrs to the exterior, rooms at level of exit discharge combined with low student-teacher ratios and the general practice of keeping class sizes low in toddler day-care means that you're looking at (typically) less than 20 toddlers per room, with multiple teachers per room, in rooms that discharge directly to the exterior at grade.

Does it make sense?

I'm still trying to find the sense in a 30" drop before requiring a guard... :eek:
 
The offset for allowing the building to be classified as an E is the requirement for a manual fire alarm to be installed when the occupant load exceeds 30.

The thinking is that adult supervision will be in place and the early notification of a fire alarm will (hopefully) allow adequate time to evacuate the building.
 
308.5 Group I-4, day care facilities. This group shall include buildings and structures occupied by persons of any age who receive custodial care for less than 24 hours by individuals other than parents or guardians, relatives by blood, marriage or adoption, and in a place other than the home of the person cared for. A facility such as the above with five or fewer persons shall be classified as a Group R-3 or shall comply with the International Residential Code in accordance with Section 101.2. Places of worship during religious functions are not included.

308.5.1 Adult care facility. A facility that provides accommodations for less than 24 hours for more than five unrelated adults and provides supervision and personal care services shall be classified as Group I-4.

My bad again

If the amount of 2 1/2 old or younger is limited to 5 to 100 and each room that have the 2 1/2 olds has a door directly to the outside,

The faciility can be an "E"

Exception: A facility where occupants are capable of responding to an emergency situation without physical assistance from the staff shall be classified as Group R-3.

308.5.2 Child care facility. A facility that provides supervision and personal care on less than a 24-hour basis for more than five children 21/2 years of age or less shall be classified as Group I-4.

Exception: A child day care facility that provides care for more than five but no more than 100 children 21/2 years or less of age, where the rooms in which the children are cared for are located on a level of exit discharge serving such rooms and each of these child care rooms has an exit door directly to the exterior, shall be classified as Group E.
 
There can be some code "benefits" to classifying a 'day care' as an E instead of I-4. Especially if the day care is connected to a school building (E) or church (A). Perhaps this is the reason for the IBC exception.
 
George McGerd said:
There can be some code "benefits" to classifying a 'day care' as an E instead of I-4. Especially if the day care is connected to a school building (E) or church (A). Perhaps this is the reason for the IBC exception.
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welcome, would say you are mixing elephants and alligators

If it is a true business working day care it is either an E or I group.

If just child care for the church activities it is a church, so it is written and so it shall be
 
True… To clarify, I was referring to a legitimate day care center attached to a church building. There is a benefit to classifying it as "E" instead of "I". I think the separation requirements are less stringent if you are separated from an "A".
 
Well it goes back is the day care taking care of "I" or only E children or do they meet the exception

You have to call it a camel if it is a camel
 
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