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Frustrated fence contractor in business 25 years

danlawrence

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
3
Location
Stuart
RE: FENCE POOL CODE INTERPRETATIONS – 4” SPHERE

TREASURE COAST, FLORIDA

A county inspector has failed an aluminum pool fence with 3 7/8” spacing between pickets. The fence is a commercial grade, 6’ high with (3) horizontals. (2) at the top and (1) at the bottom with ¾” pickets.

The code he is calling us out on is that the 4” sphere can be pushed (forced) through. The code reads “openings in barrier shall not allow passage of a 4” diameter sphere”.

I have installed thousands of fences over the last 25 years in business and have never had this issue.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
 
Firstly, welcome to THE Forum!

Secondly, I don't believe it's the intent of the Code for anyone to be forcing a sphere through a fence.

3-7/8" space (measured) is acceptable to meet Code.

I'm envisioning the inspector wrestling the bars like he's the birdman of Alcatraz trying to free his trusty 4" sphere. I'd set them at 3" just to see him work at a bit :)

Next step is to approach the Building Official (Inspector's boss) for a clarification.

mj
 
First Welcome to the forum,

Let me make sure I understand the issue.

1.) The inspector is failing the pool fence because they can force a 4" sphere through an opening less than 4" in width?

2.) Does the inspector agree that the space is less than 4" before they apply the force to the 4" sphere and at that point the sphere does not pass, meaning without force?

If I am reading the information correct have they cited the exact code section that they are enforcing and does it say or allow an inspector to do a destructive test?

I am not sure exactly which code you are following, do you have that information you can post. In other words I see your are from Florida, but exactly which code are you being required to meet?

Does the pool code in Florida on commercial property require engineering on 6ft high pool fence or is the 6ft height the trigger point meaning over 6ft requires engineering and if so does not the engineers certs that meets code trump inspectors non-compliant test?

However, I am not aware, but I can be wrong, but the inspector is not allowed to preform destructive testing and or force testing other than requesting engineering that a product meets the loads required when something does not feel right.

Others chime in here
 
welcome!!!!

so do they use a tennis ball???

take them a wood four inch Croquet ball, when you meet for the inspection, and see if they can make it go through!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
cda said:
take them a wood four inch Croquet ball, when you meet for the inspection, and see if they can make it go through!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's possible the aluminum pickets are deflecting enough to allow passage of a rigid 4" ball. Whether the ball deforms or the fence deflects, I still think it's compliant if measured at 3-7/8"
 
ask his boss to come look at it, as long as you think there are not other problems
 
I agree with MJesse on this,

it's not about the 4" sphere deforming,

its about that on approximately 5 feet of vertical picket height, that you are more than likely able to force 1/16" of movement on each picket to pass a sphere through under force.

I don't think the inspector is anything more than over reading in to an incorrect citing of a non-violation.

Simply, if the OP is correct that if the inspector was to turn the fence panel 90 degrees to flat and then roll the sphere around on the fence panel on it's own (without force) and it does not fall through on it's own.

Then the inspector is incorrect on their citing.

Unless the local AHJ adopted some local reg that they are not identifying and citing properly that allows them to preform destructive testing on installed elements.
 
I think the key here (other than that the inspector IS what everyone else is saying) is that the code says "passage" of a 4" sphere, which would indicate something that is freely done without any additional effort. If it takes effort to force it through, it does not allow "passage" - it allows "squeezing through"!
 
You can fit a 4" sphere through any size hole with enough force. I've always interpreted the section to mean that it passes freely through (no force required to "push") and am clearly in the majority.
 
I think I see a code change coming. This can also be an issue with cable type guards and barbed wire fences where one stepping on as if to climb, opens it for the other to crawl through. How flexible are the pickets? Are we talking 5 pounds push on the ball or 500? Proposed new language

305.2.2 Openings.

Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere with not more than 50 pounds of force applied in any direction.

The 50 pounds being in consistent with the guard strength requirement in the IBC

1607.8.1.2 Intermediate rails.

Intermediate rails (all those except the handrail), balusters and panel fillers shall be designed to resist a concentrated load of 50 pounds (0.22 kN) in accordance with Section 4.5.1 of ASCE 7.
 
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Rarely do I see a fence that's made of aluminum. So the inspector can fit the sphere through with force. How much force? Could a child generate that much force? Having not seen the test, I will defer to the inspector.
 
jar546 said:
If the OP is correct in what he is reporting with no exaggeration, then the St Lucie County inspector is a moron.
When did you turn into such a sour pussy? You got some nerve to be calling out an inspector as a moron based on a contractors say so. For all you know that inspector has never made a mistake and you don't have a clue if he did now.....
 
Do you take it the fence is installed or this is a plan review comment??
 
The Code language has changed over the years/cycles... used to say 'shall not readily pass through'.

I think the 50 pound force suggestion is reasonable based on the complete text of the section(s).

And I too think our benefactor might be over reacting a bit as well. Perhaps a vacation is I order?
 
I believe you will find it difficult for a person to exert a 50 pound force of the ball. What about the kids this is intended to apply to. If I was to pick a force it would be less than 50#.

Where does it say that an engineers report can trump the building department inspector regarding compliance? With rare exceptions the engineer does not certify completed construction. He only defines what is to be installed. In addition in many cases where an engineer designs a fence I believe you will find that he does not address the design of the slats.
 
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