"That's F*&'n Bullsh&%" He said

[conarb]

BTW, I've never seen two ground rods on a power pole either, they are required to be 6' apart so I would have seen them, on building installations Ufer grounds are supposed to eliminate them; however, on remodels you can't prove the existence of the Ufer ground so PG&E requires driven rods.

 

[jar546]

If someone can attach to a concrete encased electrode such as qualifying rebar for a footer or slab, a ground rod is not even required. Again, there are options out there.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Maybe this is a reason that I see so many temp services with only one rod. Also for traffic lights and school slow down signs. Maybe the electricians are from N. CA. I'm in PA and always fail the inspection with one rod. Also no 60 amp services allowed here.

The fact is that the AHJs don't have charts showing the soils conditions and PG&E and others do, so why install additional rods if the utility says you don't need them? If the AHJs want to start testing the soils so their inspectors know how many rods are necessary all right, but why should then when the utilities have this information? If your utilities don't have this information then maybe the AHJs should invest in some testing equipment rather than force contractors to spend extra money.

Never herd of these charts. Who would pay for the testing?

 

[tmurray]

Maybe this is a reason that I see so many temp services with only one rod. Also for traffic lights and school slow down signs. Maybe the electricians are from N. CA. I'm in PA and always fail the inspection with one rod. Also no 60 amp services allowed here.



Never herd of these charts. Who would pay for the testing?

Exactly. These are probably super easy when you have an area undergoing high density development. Now, for the rest of us...

 

[classicT]

It appears that neither the general nor the electrical contractors ever heard of two ground rods, that tells me that your local soils probably don't require them or they would have heard of them, or maybe you're the only inspector that ever required them.

Contractors never lie to save money, right?

The fact is that the AHJs don't have charts showing the soils conditions and PG&E and others do, so why install additional rods if the utility says you don't need them?

Because the code requires it unless testing indicates otherwise.

If the AHJs want to start testing the soils so their inspectors know how many rods are necessary all right, but why should then when the utilities have this information? If your utilities don't have this information then maybe the AHJs should invest in some testing equipment rather than force contractors to spend extra money.

It is not incumbent upon the inspector to prove; the inspector provides a code section and the contractor should be able to document how they comply. The utility is a purveyor, not an authority; they are allowed to regulate their own transmission lines, however the service onward is governed by the AHJ. And why should jurisdictions invest in creating these maps to save contractors a minor cost.

You do realize what the cost of generating these maps would be? Add on the liability placed upon the cartographer, I am sure that such a conservative factor of safety would be applied that nearly every location would require (2).

Oh, and how are AHJ's supposed to pay for creating these maps Conarb? Would that not be one of the taxes that you preach against?


Ultimately, the issue is one of putting the cart before the horse. Purveyor's want a AHJ to provide approval per the NEC; how can one then attempt to use a purveyors map when the code clearly requires testing or (2) ground rods.

 

[conarb]

Contractors never lie to save money, right?


Because the code requires it unless testing indicates otherwise.


It is not incumbent upon the inspector to prove; the inspector provides a code section and the contractor should be able to document how they comply. The utility is a purveyor, not an authority; they are allowed to regulate their own transmission lines, however the service onward is governed by the AHJ. And why should jurisdictions invest in creating these maps to save contractors a minor cost.

There are all kinds of governing bodies besides building departments, above I posted the rules for a pre-construction meeting between the PG&E rep and the contractor, this information is conveyed at that time, along with gas and electric meter location that are not in the building codes. I've seen Tiger here post pictures of wires over swimming pools, that's not in the building code but in the Green Book.

E. Clearance From Swimming Pools

Avoid installing utility service drops above public and private swimming pools, when practical.The CPUC, not local agencies or codes, regulates, by its adoption of G.O. 95, the installation and clearances of utility-owned, operated, and maintained supply lines and service drops. G.O. 95 contains specific requirements for installing and maintaining utility supply-line and service-drop clearances above swimming pools. Figure 4-3, “Minimum Clearance for All Drops Above or Adjacent To Swimming Pools,” on Page 4-6, illustrates the minimum-permitted clearances mandated by G.O. 95 where utility service drops are installed above swimming pools. NOTE:Table 4-1, “Minimum Clearances Over Swimming Pools,” on Page 4-6, also provides clearance information for drops above or adjacent to swimming pools.¹

You do realize what the cost of generating these maps would be? Add on the liability placed upon the cartographer, I am sure that such a conservative factor of safety would be applied that nearly every location would require (2).

Oh, and how are AHJ's supposed to pay for creating these maps Conarb? Would that not be one of the taxes that you preach against?


Ultimately, the issue is one of putting the cart before the horse. Purveyor's want a AHJ to provide approval per the NEC; how can one then attempt to use a purveyors map when the code clearly requires testing or (2) ground rods.[/QUOTE]

Looking for something I came across a Home Inspectors forum:

The PG&E Green Book has detailed instructions and diagrams for the installation of Gas and Electric meters and associated equipment.So much so, it's a wonder that anyone can install anything anywhere.But, it does cover the protection of gas meters in driveways and exposed areas, and/or located in the vicinity of A/C or elec. equipment.Underground service, and plugged test tee's at the meter are also covered.A new one to me is that braided SS flex connectors are allowed where "subsidence" is possible. But no mention of seismic allowances for SS conn's.Anyhow, as a general resource, esp. for the diagrams, it's an excellent heads-up.²

The maps and charts don't have to cost anybody anything since the PG&E has them for free, they are given to you at the time fo the mandatory pre-construction meeting.


¹ https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/p...icerequirements/greenbook_manual.pdf#page=134

² http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_...mercial-inspection/34190-pg-e-green-book.html

 

[tmurray]

The maps and charts don't have to cost anybody anything since the PG&E has them for free, they are given to you at the time fo the mandatory pre-construction meeting.

You appear to be claiming that all utilities have these maps. How do you know that this is true?
You appear to be claiming that these maps are free. I understand that in this specific situation, the utility company has them for free. How do you know that they are always free?
You appear to be claiming that it is the inspector who must use the maps to determine the number of grounding rods based on these maps. This is contrary to previously posted code sections. The decision by an AHJ to allow the usage of these maps would be based on their level of service. How do you know that each AHJ has set this same level of service?

Based on your claims, I can only assume that you are being intentionally obstinate with the intention of irritating the other members of this forum.

 

[classicT]

Based on your claims, I can only assume that you are being intentionally obstinate with the intention of irritating the other members of this forum.

Could not say it better myself, so I'll just quote it.

 

[conarb]

You appear to be claiming that all utilities have these maps. How do you know that this is true?
You appear to be claiming that these maps are free. I understand that in this specific situation, the utility company has them for free. How do you know that they are always free?
You appear to be claiming that it is the inspector who must use the maps to determine the number of grounding rods based on these maps. This is contrary to previously posted code sections. The decision by an AHJ to allow the usage of these maps would be based on their level of service. How do you know that each AHJ has set this same level of service?

Based on your claims, I can only assume that you are being intentionally obstinate with the intention of irritating the other members of this forum.

I just checked and the maps and soils information are created and produced by the County Geologist. the PG&E gets the information from the various County Geologists and distributes the information to the PG&E, at least here the County Geologist is in the same offices on the same floor as the County Building Department. I also called my power pole rental company, they've never heard of two ground rods, they install all of their power poles with one driven ground, the reason I checked is that the second ground has to be 6' away from the first and I can't imagine 6' of copper wire laying on the ground. I agree that there should be two ground rods if soils require it, but as a matter fo fact the power pole rental companies don't do it. Now look at what I've done, Tiger is going to read this and go snooping around at every power pole he sees checking the grounds on them.

 

[fatboy]

"Based on your claims, I can only assume that you are being intentionally obstinate with the intention of irritating the other members of this forum."

Could not say it better myself, so I'll just quote it.

Double ditto.....

 

[ICE]

Conarb,
Soils maps are a best guess. The soil can change dramatically from one side of a building footprint to the other.

The utility can do whatever it chooses with it’s own equipment.....they are, after all, exempt from permitting. Their single rod is their choice and does not follow the NEC.

Power companies get by as cheap as possible. Look at the size of the wire that’s used for service drops. Take note of the fires they cause. I never trust the power company for anything that is my responsibility...well I don’t trust anyone else either so that doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Long ago I worked at a factory in Palo Alto that manufactured high vacuum deposition machines. The apparatus was comprised of an aluminum chamber of about 30 gallons and pumps that created a vacuum in that chamber equal to deep space. There were many silicone wafers and an ingot of gold in the chamber. The ingot was hit with an electron beam and the ingot became a vapor that coated the silicone wafers; forming the substrate for computer chips.

National Semiconductor {Sunnyvale Ca.} was a customer. The machines quit working properly.....there was a loss of control of the electron beam. After much investigation the problem was solved by placing a garden hose to keep the ground wet at the premises ground rod.

The electron beam was 100,000 volts. If done wrong there could be an explosion. That happened once before I went to work there...killed two people. I know this because I was the person that wired the machines. I did not say that I was an electrician.

Parts of the conductor was bar stock that was brazed. I want to say that silver was part of that but that may be a faded memory. The welders were from a motorcycle gang. The smoke in the air wasn't from the welding.

Then came a day when there were two Japanese gentlemen sitting on stools in my workspace. I was told that they were there because Sony Corp. wanted to understand how I did what I did. Do they have motorcycle gangs in Japan?

 

[JPohling]

Conarb,
Soils maps are a best guess. The soil can change dramatically from one side of a building footprint to the other.

The utility can do whatever it chooses with it’s own equipment.....they are, after all, exempt from permitting. Their single rod is their choice and does not follow the NEC.

Power companies get by as cheap as possible. Look at the size of the wire that’s used for service drops. Take note of the fires they cause. I never trust the power company for anything that is my responsibility...well I don’t trust anyone else either so that doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Long ago I worked at a factory in Palo Alto that manufactured high vacuum deposition machines. The apparatus was comprised of an aluminum chamber of about 30 gallons and pumps that created a vacuum in that chamber equal to deep space. There were many silicone wafers and an ingot of gold in the chamber. The ingot was hit with an electron beam and the ingot became a vapor that coated the silicone wafers; forming the substrate for computer chips.

National Semiconductor {Sunnyvale Ca.} was a customer. The machines quit working properly.....there was a loss of control of the electron beam. After much investigation the problem was solved by placing a garden hose to keep the ground wet at the premises ground rod.

The electron beam was 100,000 volts. If done wrong there could be an explosion. That happened once before I went to work there...killed two people. I know this because I was the person that wired the machines. I did not say that I was an electrician.

Parts of the conductor was bar stock that was brazed. I want to say that silver was part of that but that may be a faded memory. The welders were from a motorcycle gang. The smoke in the air wasn't from the welding.

Then came a day when there were two Japanese gentlemen sitting on stools in my workspace. I was told that they were there because Sony Corp. wanted to understand how I did what I did. Do they have motorcycle gangs in Japan?

BEST STORY EVER! And yes there are motorcycle gangs in Japan they all ride Harley's or Japanese imitations and dress in American 50's garb with slicked back hair and shaved widows peaks. not violent, its more of a fashion

 

[SCBO1]

Tiger is going to read this and go snooping around at every power pole he sees checking the grounds on them.

Good luck with that!

I have seen the POCO take the grounding wire and staple it to the very bottom of the wood utility pole end like a cinnamon roll then run the grounding wire up the side stapled and unprotected, (no conduit).

"That's F*&'n Bullsh&%" I say!

 

[conarb]

Good luck with that!

I have seen the POCO take the grounding wire and staple it to the very bottom of the wood utility pole end like a cinnamon roll then run the grounding wire up the side stapled and unprotected, (no conduit).

"That's F*&'n Bullsh&%" I say!

I know how we install a second ground rod 6' away by stapling the copper ground wire along the foundation under the siding, but with a power pole, like in this instance, how are you going to run the copper wire 6' over the ground to the second rod, now that's "unprotected", you could trip over it? BTW, the Green Book says these are CPUC rules, I'm sure Tiger carries all the CPUC rules around in his car.

 

[JPohling]

Jeeez Ice has made it clear that he is not concerned about what the utility companies do. Conarb it must be very frustrating for you to come up against someone that knows more than you and can clearly articulate that. Quit your petty crap

 

[conarb]

Jeeez Ice has made it clear that he is not concerned about what the utility companies do. Conarb it must be very frustrating for you to come up against someone that knows more than you and can clearly articulate that. Quit your petty crap

The utilities implement the rules and regulations of the California Public Utilities Commission, they can, and do, tell the local building departments to go pound salt. I've built buildings at the Lawrence Berkeley Labs, and local schools, where building inspectors don't even show up; whereas, PG&E rules are followed to the letter, building departments have become nothing but local taxation authorities that try to drive the price of construction through the roof, its' pretty obvious that neither JAR nor Tiger give a damn how high they drive costs.

 

[classicT]

building departments have become nothing but local taxation authorities that try to drive the price of construction through the roof

Conarb, if the hints have not been aplenty, let me spell it out.

You are on a forum that is comprised heavily of code officials. The remaining portion is made of those that want to follow the code.

You are the exception. You do not respect the position code officials are tasked with. You do not want to build per code. If you cannot start to work with the other members of this forum, then you should not be welcome here IMHO.

 

[SCBO1]

NEC 1996 250-84 only required one ground, What was the reasoning for requiring an additional rod?

 

[ICE]

NEC 1996 250-84 only required one ground, What was the reasoning for requiring an additional rod?

It's more expensive.

 

[jar546]

NEC 1996 250-84 only required one ground, What was the reasoning for requiring an additional rod?

Most water services to a building for copper and the copper pipe was a great grounding electrode. There was one copper rod that was placed was in addition to the copper water service. Many water services are being replaced with plastic pipe, therefore losing the effective ground path required to go back to the utility transformer. The ohms became important to ensure that there was a low impedance and testing has proved that a second rod lowered the impedance to create a better ground fault path. But then again, a new construction if you hit building steel and have rebar in the footing that qualifies as a concrete encased electrode, then ground rods are unnecessary

 

[jar546]

Conarb, if the hints have not been aplenty, let me spell it out.

You are on a forum that is comprised heavily of code officials. The remaining portion is made of those that want to follow the code.

You are the exception. You do not respect the position code officials are tasked with. You do not want to build per code. If you cannot start to work with the other members of this forum, then you should not be welcome here IMHO.

You are correct in your opinion. If he wants to continue to make a fool of himself with his extremist opinions, I should just let him. The minute that it becomes political or personal, it should be reported or stopped. I have given him multiple warnings in the past for that type of behavior. It is one thing to disagree, it is another thing to just drown on with unhelpful rhetoric that detracts from the purpose of the forum. Maybe he should put his full name rather than being anonymous and see if he wants to share his opinions since he’s retired and isn’t risking losing a job anyway

 

[fatboy]

"You are the exception. You do not respect the position code officials are tasked with."

Agreed.......

"You do not want to build per code."

Disagree. I really have the impression that CA built large scale structures, and they most likely were completely in line with the code. He seems to think that other builders would have the same standard, which we all know is NOT the case.


"If you cannot start to work with the other members of this forum, then you should not be welcome here IMHO."

Concur

CA, if you want to contribute something positive to the forum, great. If you want to continue to have your anti-government, sanctimonious opinion, then maybe this forum isn't your place.

This is about codes, not opinions related to government oppression.

JMHO