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Painting and drinking?

steveray

steveray

SAWHORSE
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
11,751
Location
West of the river CT
Anyone done one of these "paint night" things? Did you call it A or B? <50 OL is easy, but above 50 it gets a little gray to me....To me, I would say if alcohol is "bought and served" looks a lot like A2, if it is BYOB, maybe B (education above the 12th grade)....Any other insight?

Thanks!
 
If the occupant load exceeds 49, whether drinks are served or not, I would still classify it as a Group A—Group A-2 if drinks are served or Group A-3 if drinks are not served. Read the description of a Group A:

“...the gathering of persons for purposes such as civic, social or religious functions; recreation, food or drink consumption or awaiting transportation.”
​
This is definitely a “social” event.
 
Ron, I agree that if drinks are served, there is no question that it becomes an A-2.

However, does the hazard become significant enough to move from a B to an A-3? This type of business caters to adults and/or family groups and arranges them in a low density environment. Occupant load could be justified as a business area at 1:100, or an education shop area at 1:50.

I believe that if we are going to push anything over an OL of 50 into an A, then the function of the space should have an occupant load consistent with an assembly use. Where the function of the space is not assembly (i.e. low OL density such as this case), then the use and occupancy classification should be considered as well.
 
Occupancy group per Chapter 3 and function of space per Chapter 10 are two separate things and they may not correspond directly. Find the occupant load factor that properly corresponds to the function of the space and if the occupant load exceeds 49, then determine if the occupancy of the area falls within the description of a Group A. If it does, then it is classified as a Group A—Group A-3 if it doesn’t fit within any other Group A occupancy.

If the density is low enough, then the “Business areas” occupant load factor may be acceptable if approved by the B.O. per the exception to Section 1004.5.
 
RLGA said:
Occupancy group per Chapter 3 and function of space per Chapter 10 are two separate things and they may not correspond directly. Find the occupant load factor that properly corresponds to the function of the space and if the occupant load exceeds 49, then determine if the occupancy of the area falls within the description of a Group A. If it does, then it is classified as a Group A—Group A-3 if it doesn’t fit within any other Group A occupancy.

If the density is low enough, then the “Business areas” occupant load factor may be acceptable if approved by the B.O. per the exception to Section 1004.5.
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I 100% agree that this is the method to use, and that group (Ch 3) and function of space (Ch 10) are two separate things; however, where I disagree is that anything over 50 is an A. The code does not support this outright. Either classification (B or A-3) should be acceptable.

Anything under 50, goes to a B (303.1.2), but show me where anything related to number of occupants appears in Section 304 - Business Groups, specifically for training and skill development not in a school or academic program (where not classified as an A).

Specific provisions supersede general. To hang your hat on the inclusion of the word "social" under 303.1 to apply an A use is a reach in some instances, whereas the description of training and skill development is specific.

The examples provided under each of the A groups bear little similarity to the intended use. The intended use is a service based transaction for skill development, a B use and classification should be as acceptable as an A-3.
 
I'm not saying that anything with an occupant load of 50 or more is a Group A--I'm saying that anything that meets the description of a Group A per Section 303.1 and has an occupant load of 50 or more must be classified as a Group A. For example, a large open office with an occupant load of 100 is not classified as Group A because it is not "for the gathering of persons for purposes such as civic, social or religious functions; recreation, food or drink consumption or awaiting transportation." However, these "Paint Nite" events are purposefully intended to be social and/or recreational--thus, conforming to the description for a Group A. And, as you stated above, "where not classified as a Group A occupancy" is mentioned within the listing of "Training and skill development"; thus, they are indicating that these spaces must be classified as a Group A when they conform to the conditions of a Group A.

In the list for Group A-3, "Lecture halls" are listed, so adult education (above 12th grade) must be considered when classifying for Group A, even though it is not specifically listed as such under Group A as it is for Group B. The "Training and skills development" is added to primarily distinguish these type of education programs from those classified as Group E, especially when the occupants could be in the 12th grade or below.

You can try to classify it as a Group B, but don't be surprised when a comment comes back to change the classification.
 
It's like you guys are in my head.....Same debate I am having with my self.....The designer called it B with 100 gross OL....Which I am certainly not on board with. Just still splitting the hair of is it drinking first and then painting or is it painting first....If you have an office with a bar in it, it is not necessarily an A.....I do believe you can serve in places that are not an A2...
 
most of the time here you pay to paint and the wine is free. Liquor license are hard to get here so even some restaurants give you free wine and charge extra for the food. Some are bring your own. Some do both.
Does this make a difference for the occupancy type?
 
Rick18071 said:
most of the time here you pay to paint and the wine is free. Liquor license are hard to get here so even some restaurants give you free wine and charge extra for the food. Some are bring your own. Some do both.
Does this make a difference for the occupancy type?
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Group A-2 includes only "food and/or drink consumption" and has nothing to do with where the food or drink comes from.
 
B if occupant load below fifty

I guess if you go with talk drinking alcohol makes a place an A

Than the nail salon that serves
The beauty shop that serves

My office after a long day with contractors
 
A drinking establishment is only a Group A-2 when the occupant load is greater than 49. The nail salon and beauty shop would likely be classified as a Group A-2 occupancy if they advertise drinks as part of their service and requires a liquor license. Drinking in your office or providing business associates with drinks would not be a factor since you're not providing drinks as a part of your official business operation.
 
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Years ago I met a man that was teaching a class. I recall that the class subject was Means of Egress and the man seemed believable. He claimed to have been on the committee that set the number at 50 occupants as a trigger. I asked how the number was determined. He said that’s the number the committee could all agree upon. Some wanted more and some wanted less. There was no science or even an educated guess behind the choice. He said that it was not a pleasant experience.
 
ICE said:
Years ago I met a man that was teaching a class. I recall that the class subject was Means of Egress and the man seemed believable. He claimed to have been on the committee that set the number at 50 occupants as a trigger. I asked how the number was determined. He said that’s the number the committee could all agree upon. Some wanted more and some wanted less. There was no science or even an educated guess behind the choice. He said that it was not a pleasant experience.
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I'd believe it. There is also no science behind the allowable areas in Chapter 5.
 
ICC instructor Doug T has taught for years that if a number in the code ends in 5 or 0 it is a made up number that a committee finally agreed upon. Similar to travel distance numbers, the distances where in the code long before there was any scientific studies on how long it takes someone to travel a specific distance.
 
I believe we all are leery of place with alcohol, mostly because in a panic situation, people that are intoxicated are hard to get out of a building.
 
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