mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Doing commercial plan reviews we usually provide a section number
Residential plan review and inspections never unless asked
Residential plan review and inspections never unless asked
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Do You Cite Code Sections for Every Violation?
- Thread starter jar546
- Start date
jwilly3879
Sawhorse
When they say "Show me."
Builder Bob
Sawhorse
Depends upon the level that the inspection will go to.... if it goes to court, it better be documented with code sections.
Keystone
SAWHORSE
Plan Reviews; For Residential I provide a Chapter Section, if questioned or requested I provide code section. For Commercial I provide code section.
Field Inspections; Only provide code section for Residential or Commercial as requested.
I would prefer to provide code for everything but that is not possible with typical schedule/work load.
Field Inspections; Only provide code section for Residential or Commercial as requested.
I would prefer to provide code for everything but that is not possible with typical schedule/work load.
my250r11
Sawhorse
I'm with you on that one, Them: I don't have one, ME; the law says you are suppose to, so I will add that to the correction list!
If asked i will explain or give section, very seldom get asked anymore unless new contractor in town.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
For some reason I am just seeing this. In every state and country that I have received a moving violation while driving, the specific ordinance number has always been on the ticket.
This is not a waste of time and resources. Inspectors can have cheat sheets for common violations on their clipboard. This method is very helpful. If you know a code exists then you should at least know what section and or chapter it is so you can look it up quickly. My cheat sheet has about 3 pages that I am constantly updating for routine, basic codes and a few odd ones that are rare. It helps me to remember them.
This is where the do as I say even though I am too lazy to show you the code problem comes into place. Having a cheat sheet or looking up the code section helps the inspector to remember and sometimes if you read the most recent changes to the code, you just might find out that you are learning something yourself.
Stop the laziness and complacency. Cite the code section.
Travel the world...terrorize the countryside.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
I do not view my inspection reports in the same way as I would a ticket. Here, I cannot go to court from just an inspection report. I must issue an order. That order must contain a code section. If the order is not complied with, I can now take that person to court.
Are your inspections primarily to help contractors do it right or is it to gather evidence to for enforcement? Depending on your jurisdiction, one, the other, or both might be what you need to do. Luckily, when I write a deficiency, the contractor just corrects the issue the vast majority of the time. Sometimes they ask why and I explain why. Very rarely am I asked for a code section. I am always happy to provide it. I recommend that contractors always ask for code sections for corrections that sound odd.
In my mind, it is all in how you want to structure your department. If you make the report out like a ticket, people will treat it like one. Make it like a punch list, they'll treat it like one. It's all a matter of what gets traction in your jurisdiction.
You make a fair case. However, I still don't often think staffing levels are sufficient for this kind of detail in an inspection report in many cities. Mine was one of them. I definitely agree that many, many inspectors need to crack that book open more often. Definitely agree with that. I probably shouldn't have compared it to a speeding ticket, because a contractor often sees an inspector more regularly and can build a professional relationship with them. Where there can be some level of trust formed between professionals working together, things can be accomplished much more efficiently.
Just to be a pain... I could also throw this in there: 105.9 Responsibility, where the duty to comply with code is on those that did the work. HOWEVER, for any correction that is a local or state amendment to the model code, I always made the statement "per city amendment" to help direct them to what they should have already read.
When responding to licensed designers with code sections, there's a good chance they will learn from your response and won't make that mistake again. You both win.
Homeowners and contractors, who probably dont have a code book ... if you told me "because im the inspector and i know the code and i said so" would be waving a red bandana at a mad bull. If you know ths code well enough to see the situation is a violation, then you should know what section it is and you should cite that section. Maybe just the main section, not the sub-sub-paragraph number. Nothing wrong with expecting the contractor to read thd code, but give them a clue where to find it.
Inspector Gift
Sawhorse - Made in USA
Oregon has mandated that inspectors "Cite It" if they "Write It". Taking the time to list each code section for every violation I discover is often overly burdensome. I personally know many inspectors give verbal corrections to avoid the bother, others limit the number of corrections they write... and many don't bother with citing the code sections at all unless they think there will be serious push back or the possibility of an appeal to the State Building Codes Division over the correction. Oregon doesn't yet have a penalty listed for non-compliance to their "Cite-it and Write-it" law.
Personally, I prefer to take the time to explain, REASONS and INTENT for any given code requirement. The contractors are more willing to change their practices if they UNDERSTAND THE REASON of the code. If the contractor isn't on site, then I call or text them. Oregon does have a list of common corrections and the associated code sections, which helps some. The down side is that the code sections change with every code cycle and not all of the items I write up are listed, so I have to go take the time to dig out my code book and hunt up some obscure code section. Thankfully, the reasons and intent for the codes remain the same.
Personally, I prefer to take the time to explain, REASONS and INTENT for any given code requirement. The contractors are more willing to change their practices if they UNDERSTAND THE REASON of the code. If the contractor isn't on site, then I call or text them. Oregon does have a list of common corrections and the associated code sections, which helps some. The down side is that the code sections change with every code cycle and not all of the items I write up are listed, so I have to go take the time to dig out my code book and hunt up some obscure code section. Thankfully, the reasons and intent for the codes remain the same.
It should be department policy if not state law that the applicant can ignore any comment where no code section is listed until a proper citation is provided. The applicant should respond to the inspector or plan checker, copying the building official, stating that the comments have not been properly cited and thus the applicant does not need to comply with them.
If a design professional recognizes that a code provision has been violated he knows that he will have to deal with it whether or not it is properly cited but too often the comment is not supported by the code or is based on a flawed interpretation of the code.
If a design professional recognizes that a code provision has been violated he knows that he will have to deal with it whether or not it is properly cited but too often the comment is not supported by the code or is based on a flawed interpretation of the code.
There is some truth to that. It depends on the inspector. I work with inspectors that are meticulous in their application of the code. They strive to be correct. Then their are other inspectors that wouldn't know the difference. Management's take on it is that we have to work with what we've got. It's not going to get better any time soon.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
I get this and agree with doing this on a plan review with architects, engineers, etc., but on a single family home, or a field inspection, why am I giving them a code section for every violation when the contractor or person building their own home doesn't even own a code book? When questioned, we don't just provide the section number, we provide the section.
JBI
Registered User
If you are not citing the Code then you are not doing your job as a Code Official.
If you are going to write it, you better be ready to cite it.
When I tell someone that something doesn't meet Code, I always tell them which section my decision is based on.
That the individual may or may not own or have access to the Code is irrelevant.
If you are going to write it, you better be ready to cite it.
When I tell someone that something doesn't meet Code, I always tell them which section my decision is based on.
That the individual may or may not own or have access to the Code is irrelevant.
When a police officer issues a ticket or arrests somebody they always cite the law. Why should the building inspectors be different.
In response to the comments that resist citing the code because of staffing levels I would offer a couple of perspectives.
In California and I expect most other places the building department can increase the permit fees to pay for adequate staffing. So if you have a problem with the work load talk with management or is it easier to take it out on the applicant.
Also remember that building department seem to have no problem with imposing additional administrative requirements on the applicant. The hours waiting in line or just waiting for the plan checker to get to a project. So why should you expect sympathy from those impacted by your requirements.
Also remember as an engineer I am not excused from complying with a regulation because I do not know where to find it.
In response to the comments that resist citing the code because of staffing levels I would offer a couple of perspectives.
In California and I expect most other places the building department can increase the permit fees to pay for adequate staffing. So if you have a problem with the work load talk with management or is it easier to take it out on the applicant.
Also remember that building department seem to have no problem with imposing additional administrative requirements on the applicant. The hours waiting in line or just waiting for the plan checker to get to a project. So why should you expect sympathy from those impacted by your requirements.
Also remember as an engineer I am not excused from complying with a regulation because I do not know where to find it.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
The problem I have here with writing down sections is that the state has a code that adopts certain sections in different code book years. The state has adopted most of the 2015 i codes but not all, it also adopted sections out of the 2009 and the 2018 and some sections the state made up on their own.. A home owner or contractor would have to own 3 different IRC's and the state codes to build a house.
For instance for an receptacle on a deck I would have to write down "PA-UCC 403.21 (a) (7) (iii) (L), 2009 IRC E3901.7 Deck requires an electrical receptacle".
I think I would get writers cramp after a few of these if I had to write it. But now it's even worst because I am required to write up the report on a cell phone with 67 year old thumbs! I just tried this and it took me over 2 minutes to put this one section number in my cell phone.
For instance for an receptacle on a deck I would have to write down "PA-UCC 403.21 (a) (7) (iii) (L), 2009 IRC E3901.7 Deck requires an electrical receptacle".
I think I would get writers cramp after a few of these if I had to write it. But now it's even worst because I am required to write up the report on a cell phone with 67 year old thumbs! I just tried this and it took me over 2 minutes to put this one section number in my cell phone.
This is the crux of the problem, multiple code years, amendments and different jurisdictions create issues for all.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Inspectors usually do not have the time to look up and cite code sections during the day. In fact I instruct them not to because it slows them down and they can get into a confrontation as to the meaning and intent of the code in the field which is not good for anyone. The last thing I want is an inspector that may give the appearance of arrogance when trying to tell someone they are wrong. I would rather have them say "Well let me research it and get back to you" and then call me to research it and provide the correct response. Believe it or not my guys have been wrong on occasion because of a footnote or exception or what they where thinking did not apply to that occupancy group. Then my inspectors will call the contractor and admit the error and explain why and the result is we have built a stronger relationship with that contractor and that we are all humans and make mistakes.
mtlog,
That's how the last two BO's I worked for wanted it done. I see nothing wrong with it in today's world. I'm the only inspector here so you get what you get but IMO I was coached the correct way. If a contractor questions my inspection report, I'll be sure to get him the answer, even if I'm wrong with an apology. No reason to show the contractor up by citing code sections.
Maybe this discussion should change to home inspectors forcing home sellers to change out FPE panels and adding GFCI so they can sell their home.
That's how the last two BO's I worked for wanted it done. I see nothing wrong with it in today's world. I'm the only inspector here so you get what you get but IMO I was coached the correct way. If a contractor questions my inspection report, I'll be sure to get him the answer, even if I'm wrong with an apology. No reason to show the contractor up by citing code sections.
Maybe this discussion should change to home inspectors forcing home sellers to change out FPE panels and adding GFCI so they can sell their home.
conarb
Registered User
I heard that there is nothing wrong with FP panels, all that needs changing is the breakers in the panels, has something changed again?
Some inspectors have the time to provide code sections....I do not. Perhaps one in a hundred inspections would a section have an impact.
The people that ask for a section usually demand a section because lest I forget, I work for them. The best that I can do is get back to them when I have had the time to look it up. When they are being stupid I ignore them.
When I'm told that they will not do as asked without a code section I explain that I am not in a hurry nor am I telling them that they have to do anything they don't want to do. So often the correction in question is a Code 101 issue that is laughable.
Small is the number of contractors that have a code book. Contractors think they are capable of building a house with none of the codes that govern their industry. What do they do?....Just guess....take a shot in the dark.
The mechanic that works on my truck has a book with every last nut and bolt with pictures. The guy that built your house follows his heart....he does what he has learned to date. He may have one years experience or one years experience thirty times. If you lucked out he's a professional that understands the importance of what he is doing.....just don't ask to see his code books.
Many contractors learn by corrections. I recognized a crew building a room addition and I asked them how they got the job. The kid in charge had a stack of corrections sheets that I wrote. He said that they show that to prospective customers as proof that they are learning. When they show the customer my signature....well that carries weight.
The only contractors that have ever produced a code book and asked for clarification are electrical contractors. Roofers spend too much time in the Sun.
I don't profess to be infallible. I have been challenged and I have been wrong. I have been wrong here at the forum. I like when that happens. It reaffirms that I am still capable of learning new things and still have a ways to go. I've been known to celebrate with a root beer float....with chocolate chip ice cream..... that gives a little treat at the end.
The people that ask for a section usually demand a section because lest I forget, I work for them. The best that I can do is get back to them when I have had the time to look it up. When they are being stupid I ignore them.
When I'm told that they will not do as asked without a code section I explain that I am not in a hurry nor am I telling them that they have to do anything they don't want to do. So often the correction in question is a Code 101 issue that is laughable.
Small is the number of contractors that have a code book. Contractors think they are capable of building a house with none of the codes that govern their industry. What do they do?....Just guess....take a shot in the dark.
The mechanic that works on my truck has a book with every last nut and bolt with pictures. The guy that built your house follows his heart....he does what he has learned to date. He may have one years experience or one years experience thirty times. If you lucked out he's a professional that understands the importance of what he is doing.....just don't ask to see his code books.
Many contractors learn by corrections. I recognized a crew building a room addition and I asked them how they got the job. The kid in charge had a stack of corrections sheets that I wrote. He said that they show that to prospective customers as proof that they are learning. When they show the customer my signature....well that carries weight.
The only contractors that have ever produced a code book and asked for clarification are electrical contractors. Roofers spend too much time in the Sun.
I don't profess to be infallible. I have been challenged and I have been wrong. I have been wrong here at the forum. I like when that happens. It reaffirms that I am still capable of learning new things and still have a ways to go. I've been known to celebrate with a root beer float....with chocolate chip ice cream..... that gives a little treat at the end.
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