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Egress from Second Level Through Intervening Space that is Egress

H

hbriburn

Guest
Question:

Is there a straight face possibility to have a second means of egress that is accessible only through another egress stair enclosure? The question comes up for a two level dorm where the outer modules have less than the max dead end corridor distance to the nearest exit. See attached diagram. Let me know if I can clarify anything.

2018-03-05_1726.png
 
I can’t see the layout.

So you are in a corridor

Then walk through a stair enclosure and out of it

To access a second exit??

I am thinking there is something wrong with it.

Seems like people would enter the stair and go down
 
No layout here either, but the premise is sound I believe. There is nothing that says you can't transition from exit enclosure to exit enclosure such as vertical exit enclosure stair to exit passageway at ground level to exterior...
 
Question:

Is there a straight face possibility to have a second means of egress that is accessible only through another egress stair enclosure? The question comes up for a two level dorm where the outer modules have less than the max dead end corridor distance to the nearest exit. See attached diagram. Let me know if I can clarify anything.

2018-03-05_1726.png


If you can make it a link,

You can post the link and it should work
 
Hi all, this issue is coming back around again. here's a link to the layout: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEklIkSFhnaYrq53BfjObyjjTk9aLTFh/view?usp=sharing

Let me know if link doesn't work.

Fire officials have given various interpretations---and they are clear that these are interpretations for this building that is unusual approach as far as they are concerned.

The primary issue I need to resolve right now is whether this is a single exit (2009 NFPA 101 28.2.4.2) from the second floor or if there are two exits from the second floor. It's been our belief that there are two exits from the second floor.
 
Since you are on Hwy 101,

Need to see how travel distance and dead end reads, in that book
 
That is a building floor with 2 exits with egress within continuous 1hr rating 2 level R occupancy with this floor shown as the second level. If there are < 20 occupants, bldg sprinkled & CPET < 125' then the outer 2 modules only need access to 1 exit from the second floor.


SECTION 1006 NUMBER OF EXITS AND EXIT ACCESS DOORWAYS
The number of exits or exit access doorways required with in the means of egress system shall comply with the provisions of Section 1006.2 for spaces, including mezzanines, and Section 1006.3 for stories.

1006.2 Egress from spaces.
Rooms, areas or spaces, including mezzanines, within a story or basement shall be provided with the number of exits or access to exits in accordance with this section.

1006.2.1 Egress based on occupant load and common path of egress travel distance.
Two exits or exit access doorways from any space shall be provided where the design occupant load or the common path of egress travel distance exceeds the values listed in Table 1006.2. 1.

Exceptions:

  1. ln Group R-2 and R-3 occupancies, one means of egress is permitted within and from individual dwelling units with a maximum occupant load of 20 where the dwelling unit is equipped through out with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2 and the common path of egress travel does not exceed 125 feet
  2. Care suites in Group 1-2 occupancies complying with Section 407.4
 
That is a building floor with 2 exits with egress within continuous 1hr rating 2 level R occupancy with this floor shown as the second level. If there are < 20 occupants, bldg sprinkled & CPET < 125' then the outer 2 modules only need access to 1 exit from the second floor.


SECTION 1006 NUMBER OF EXITS AND EXIT ACCESS DOORWAYS
The number of exits or exit access doorways required with in the means of egress system shall comply with the provisions of Section 1006.2 for spaces, including mezzanines, and Section 1006.3 for stories.

1006.2 Egress from spaces.
Rooms, areas or spaces, including mezzanines, within a story or basement shall be provided with the number of exits or access to exits in accordance with this section.

1006.2.1 Egress based on occupant load and common path of egress travel distance.
Two exits or exit access doorways from any space shall be provided where the design occupant load or the common path of egress travel distance exceeds the values listed in Table 1006.2. 1.

Exceptions:

  1. ln Group R-2 and R-3 occupancies, one means of egress is permitted within and from individual dwelling units with a maximum occupant load of 20 where the dwelling unit is equipped through out with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2 and the common path of egress travel does not exceed 125 feet
  2. Care suites in Group 1-2 occupancies complying with Section 407.4



Point of order, this is being designed to NFPA 101.
 
Hi all, this issue is coming back around again. here's a link to the layout: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEklIkSFhnaYrq53BfjObyjjTk9aLTFh/view?usp=sharing

Let me know if link doesn't work.

Fire officials have given various interpretations---and they are clear that these are interpretations for this building that is unusual approach as far as they are concerned.

The primary issue I need to resolve right now is whether this is a single exit (2009 NFPA 101 28.2.4.2) from the second floor or if there are two exits from the second floor. It's been our belief that there are two exits from the second floor.


Just clarifying the bedrooms have open-able windows???
 
ok this is from 2012, just check against 2009,

28.2.4 Number of Means of Egress.
28.2.4.1
Means of egress shall comply with all of the following, except as otherwise permitted by 28.2.4.2 and 28.2.4.3:

  1. (1)
    The number of means of egress shall be in accordance with Section 7.4.

  2. (2)
    Not less than two separate exits shall be provided on every story.

  3. (3)
    Not less than two separate exits shall be accessible from every part of every story.

DOES not look like you meet # 2 above, and no the bedroom window does not meet the second exit requirement.

Unless you meet below:::

28.2.4.3
A single exit shall be permitted in buildings where the total number of stories does not exceed four, provided that all of the following conditions are met:

  1. (1)
    There are four or fewer guest rooms or guest suites per story.

  2. (2)
    The building is protected throughout by an approved, supervised automatic sprinkler system in accordance with 28.3.5.

  3. (3)
    The exit stairway does not serve more than one-half of a story below the level of exit discharge.

  4. (4)
    The travel distance from the entrance door of any guest room or guest suite to an exit does not exceed 35 ft (10.7 m).

  5. (5)
    The exit stairway is completely enclosed or separated from the rest of the building by barriers having a minimum 1-hour fire resistance rating.

  6. (6)
    All openings between the exit stairway enclosure and the building are protected with self-closing door assemblies having a minimum 1-hour fire protection rating.

  7. (7)
    All corridors serving as access to exits have a minimum 1-hour fire resistance rating.

  8. (8)
    Horizontal and vertical separation having a minimum 1∕ 2-hour fire resistance rating is provided between guest rooms or guest suites.
Although 28.2.4.1(2) requires a minimum of two exits on every story in new hotels and dormitories, and 29.2.4.1(2) requires access to a minimum of two separate exits from each floor in existing hotels and dormitories, 7.4.1.2 requires a third exit when the occupant load of a floor exceeds 500 and a fourth exit when it exceeds 1000. The requirement of 7.4.1.2 will probably have little effect on modern hotel design practices, because floors large enough to accommodate more than 500 persons would probably be provided with more than two exits, based on travel distance limit considerations (see 28/29.2.6).



LOOKS like 2009 reads about the same.
 
Hi All,

Answers to questions:

Max dead end corridor 50' - 28.2.5.6
Max common path of travel 50' - 28.2.5.4

Windows are operable, but have exterior sliding window screens that could prevent egress through windows
 
Hi All,

Answers to questions:

Max dead end corridor 50' - 28.2.5.6
Max common path of travel 50' - 28.2.5.4

Windows are operable, but have exterior sliding window screens that could prevent egress through windows


And your answer/s to post 14 above?
 
Tell me more about why this is a single exit and in what scenario could this be seen as two exits. We have two stairs.

I know this is a stretch to some and is open to interpretation. Even our state fire marshal has acknowledged that there are multiple ways of seeing this in their office.
 
Tell me more about why this is a single exit and in what scenario could this be seen as two exits. We have two stairs.

I know this is a stretch to some and is open to interpretation. Even our state fire marshal has acknowledged that there are multiple ways of seeing this in their office.


If you are at one of the end pods,,,

There is only access to one stair.

One exit.

That is what I would write as plan reviewer.
 
I can see why you'd say that.

I think the design team is seeing that end module as a dead end corridor. Does that at all jibe to you?
 
I can see why you'd say that.

I think the design team is seeing that end module as a dead end corridor. Does that at all jibe to you?


I would not call it a dead end.

If you are say in the last unit of an end pod,,,

You only have true access to one exit,,,

Not the two required exits.
 
Other than possible dead end corridors, it is one building. The rating for the connector in the corridor had me puzzled at first but it is an extension of the stair shaft.

Also, door swing conflict at 211 &210, 240,241,258 & 259 and on first floor.

I also see the stairway A as being exterior or open stair since no doors are depicted on the first floor.

If the building was totally enclosed as one building, would this still meet egress? With the exception of potential dead end corridors, I don't see much problem with this.

The dead end corridor is a problem unless a true NFPA 13 system is used as referenced by dead end corridor length. If this is using a 13 R system, all bets are off.

BB
 
He has to follow Hwy 101/ NFPA 101:::


“”The primary issue I need to resolve right now is whether this is a single exit (2009 NFPA 101 28.2.4.2) from the second floor or if there are two exits from the second floor. It's been our belief that there are two exits from the second floor.”””



Two exits required.
 
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