Guard Deflection Pass, Fail and or Compliance

[tbz]

Ok this has been a long time discussion I keep having over and over with architects, engineers and contractors about an inspectors limits on inspection and whether its a request for compliance or failure notice.

I have always been told and been under the understanding that inspectors can't personally perform a structural load test on a guard or handrail and as such if they feel the guard or handrail feels unsafe they issue a failure notice based on an assumption, not a fact and then request verification of compliance.

I have an inquiry about a inspector failing a guard installation for deflection, not anything I did, I get calls for help like this all the time. My understanding is if they are doing an inspection and feel the guard wiggles or deflects a little bit more than they feel comfortable with, the inspector then issues a notice that they are not signing off and passing the guard and or handrail until the owner/contractor can produce a engineers compliance letter that they have inspected and confirmed that the guard as constructed and in place meets or exceeds the enforced building code for the jurisdiction or stabilizes the guard to the touch of the inspector willingness to now issue the C/O.

How do you all figure/inspect for deflection as a violation within the code during a visual inspection of a guard and note it as a failure and then treat it. Also is there specifically a deflection requirement to be met for guards within the IBC structural that I am missing for this type of violation notice?

Please don't be bashful on this, trying to get to a long standing revolving door issue solved or maybe look at a proposal for next cycle to clear this up better.

Regards - Tom

 

[Yikes]

I have always been told and been under the understanding that inspectors can't personally perform a structural load test on a guard or handrail and as such if they feel the guard or handrail feels unsafe they issue a failure notice based on an assumption, not a fact and then request verification of compliance.

There is no code requirement to limit deflection on a guardrail. If that were the case, then all those cable rails out there should never have been approved.

 

[tbz]

yikes,

I agree with your assessment, but when and what can an inspector be citing when they don't give you a code section, and then note deflection?

This happens all the time, I tell clients to ask the inspector to cite the specific code section and 80% of the time the inspectors don't, so I am asking those of you here if you feel something is not compliant lets say the guard feels not as stiff and tight as you would like it to be, how do you cite it and what do you require to prove compliance and would accept, barring them changing and making it feel stronger to your touch.

I know many of you know what I am trying to get at, not looking to hold anyone to the coals, looking for a good discussion on the topic so as to try and be able to better provide feed back to the common issue seen each day in the field.

 

[steveray]

We have to give you a reason.....
IBC
[A] 110.6 Approval required. Work shall not be done
beyond the point indicated in each successive inspection
without first obtaining the approval of the building official.
The building official, upon notification, shall make the
requested inspections and shall either indicate the portion of
the construction that is satisfactory as completed, or notify
the permit holder or his or her agent wherein the same fails to
comply with this code. Any portions that do not comply shall
be corrected and such portion shall not be covered or concealed
until authorized by the building official.

CT

(Add) 110.6.1 Notification of inspection results. Notification as to passage or failure, in whole
or in part, of any required inspection shall be made in writing by the building official or his duly
authorized representative and shall be left at the job site or delivered to the permit holder. It shall
be the duty of the permit holder to ascertain the results of required inspections.

 

[steveray]

The only thing they could cite would be the 200# and you could prove that with a BIG fish scale......Getting an engineers paper is foolish...

 

[mtlogcabin]

If the deflection is at the post base attachment points I might question that and require a load test but if the deflection is a result of the material used then no problem.

 

[tbz]

If the deflection is at the post base attachment points I might question that and require a load test but if the deflection is a result of the material used then no problem.

Mtlogcabin; this is the direction I am looking at, forget about cable infill, I am talking about any portion of a guards not just infill.

Lets say a support post is flexing/deflecting a bit and you are questioning its stability for the load requirements. Do you issue a failure notice because that is all you have pass or fail, or do you issue another type of notice that additional proof of compliance is required, form of testing? What is the formal process of your inspection flag for the notice and compliance?

 

[tbz]

The only thing they could cite would be the 200# and you could prove that with a BIG fish scale......Getting an engineers paper is foolish...

Here is my question, on a residential home, the home owner might be able to pull out a fish tape, however on a IBC project, am I correct in stating that neither the inspector, property owner or contractor can pull out a tape to show proof of compliance. As none of them are certified by the state by license to preform the load test, correct or incorrect?

 

[Yikes]

I my experience, when an inspector has made a warning citation but provided no code backup, I'd say about half of the time, the citation disappears when you ask to provide a specific code reference.

I tell the superintendent to stay on the inspectors good side and make me the bad guy: "The architect says he needs a code reference to go with the citation".

 

[ICE]

I push and pull on the attachments. It's a bit like ADA grab bars....I try to rip them off the wall. Obviously I don't try to ruin the guard because I have my own safety to consider. If the work is done according to the plans the guard should hold up. I have had guards that were done per plan and just not good enough.

It only takes a word from me and the engineers and architects are all over it. At least that's been my experience so far. Consider that an inspector is doing the job of inspecting...if an inspector is convinced that a guard isn't strong enough who in their right mind would argue with that.

Too many people want everything to be validated by code or shut up already. Real life isn't like that.

 

[fatboy]

I'm with the camp that if you suspect it, via Ice's method, or your own, require a RDP's sign-off.

Or, with a repair, via the former, you are satisfied........

Sorry Tom not much science on the inspectors part, I don't carry a fish scale.

Great to meet you in Clark County!

 

[e hilton]

I submit that very few people could pull on a railing with any type of scale and get a reading of 200#. I can, because I weigh more than that. But keeping physics in mind, how could a 150# person put a continuous 200# force on a railing? Not talking about an impact force.

 

[steveray]

Here is my question, on a residential home, the home owner might be able to pull out a fish tape, however on a IBC project, am I correct in stating that neither the inspector, property owner or contractor can pull out a tape to show proof of compliance. As none of them are certified by the state by license to preform the load test, correct or incorrect?

You do not have to be licensed to perform a test.....A'la handrails and ICE's grab bar test....If I accept a letter from an engineer, it doesn't mean I don't get sued, it means we both do....

[A] 104.4 Inspections. The building official shall make the
required inspections, or the building official shall have the
authority to accept reports of inspection by approved agencies
or individuals. Reports of such inspections shall be in
writing and be certified by a responsible officer of such
approved agency or by the responsible individual. The building
official is authorized to engage such expert opinion as
deemed necessary to report upon unusual technical issues that
arise, subject to the approval of the appointing authority.

 

[ADAguy]

In writing or not, if it fails they (the suits!) will go after everybody who was involved with its design, fabrication, installation or inspection.

 

[Inspector Gift]

It fails if I can easily push a 4" sphere thru the cable guards (assuming that easily is equal to about 50lbs of force). Passage of a sphere is the issue I focus on, not deflection.

 

[TheCommish]

2015 IBC, nothing found in the IRC

 

[ADAguy]

Protocol for an inspector to determine this if not using instruments?

 

[Yikes]

If an inspector doesn't like deflection, that's not a code issue. However, if:
(a) movement of a real suggests not merely deflection, but material weakness or poor connections or inadequate structural deflection, and
(b) the design appears not to have been significantly addressed evaluated in the approved construction documents (no calculations, or inadequate details)
- then the AHJ can request a load test (performance basis), or they can request additional structural details and calcs and material specifications as evidence that the system will not fail under design load. Having received these calcs, the inspector can also request to visually inspect materials, connections, test reports, etc. for conformance to these details and calcs.

I once had a concrete parking garage project with a very poor quality concrete sub. The forms would be stripped off and we'd see voids and pockets that indicated poor vibration. The AHJ rightly requested all kinds of tests, and in the end, they made the contractor load up the deck with a bunch of swimming pools to simulate full vehicle loads.

 

[steveray]

IRC

 

[tbz]

Consider that an inspector is doing the job of inspecting...if an inspector is convinced that a guard isn't strong enough who in their right mind would argue with that.

Ok Sorry I have been absent since I last posted on this subject, but life does happen sometimes.

ICE, I get it, you grab on, push and pull and if it feels safe to you, you smile and walk on to the next item on the check list. If not you flag it for being questionable.

To answer your post, I argue all the time with inspectors on things, mainly because I am called in only when there are issues on a project and before anyone says something, I have sided many of times with the inspector's concerns on projects and provided a direction to fix it, but many a times I also find inspectors over reaching also on things.

 

[tbz]

I'm with the camp that if you suspect it, via Ice's method, or your own, require a RDP's sign-off.

Or, with a repair, via the former, you are satisfied........

Sorry Tom not much science on the inspectors part, I don't carry a fish scale.

Great to meet you in Clark County!

I get it, I still don't understand why they do it, but I hear about it all the time. I had an inspector one time pull out a fish scale on a project, I simply asked him, Can I see your certification to use that device for inspection of a project. HE looked at me and said are your serious, I said absolutely, because I don't see the 12" square board you are suppose to be using for the area for load testing so I want to make sure you know what you are load testing for.

It was nice to see everyone at the hearings To

 

[tbz]

I submit that very few people could pull on a railing with any type of scale and get a reading of 200#. I can, because I weigh more than that. But keeping physics in mind, how could a 150# person put a continuous 200# force on a railing? Not talking about an impact force.

I am 280 and have a hard time pushing a 200 lb point load also, don't feel bad....

 

[tbz]

It fails if I can easily push a 4" sphere thru the cable guards (assuming that easily is equal to about 50lbs of force). Passage of a sphere is the issue I focus on, not deflection.

IG, please explain within the code that you are to apply a 50lb load on an area less than 144 square inches and not flat?

The proper testing method is to apply the 50lb on a 1ft square flat area and if the sphere can pass through an opening created by that force, then it fails.

If you are going to apply a force equal to the area of the sphere, the load would be more around 12-13 lbs, based on the area of the sphere compared to the area of the proper 1ft square area noted in the code.

But, I am going to try and bring people back on focus here, I am not talking about cables when I talk about deflection, I am talking about everything, the entire guard system itself..

 

[tbz]

2015 IBC, nothing found in the IRC
View attachment 6050

I got it, but where in any of that does it mention deflection limits?