steveray
SAWHORSE
You or the FM issue a violation.....
Of course it can...If you are reasonable...
A floor plan that I assume you would get with the permit application...?
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Group M with upholstered furniture
- Thread starter Mr. Inspector
- Start date
You or the FM issue a violation.....
Of course it can...If you are reasonable...
A floor plan that I assume you would get with the permit application...?
steveray
SAWHORSE
We often like to see spaces "set up" so they don't screw up egress and such with fixtures and furnishings....
In San Diego there are no issues with stocking commodities, furniture, computers etc prior to CO. Just no employees working. Agreed, Fire prefers it so they can ensure there are no issues. And yes a floor plan within the permit documents would detail the area of display and storage. I would guess that a Nordstrom Rack has a higher fire load with the dense clothing racks and shelves of shoes than an upholstered furniture store.
Sorry, i disagree. You might approve it based on say 15% of the area has upholstered furniture, but 6 months from now they might change their product line and go to 80% upholstered. And <gasp> they might do it intentionally.
So your saying you are a mind reader and your so good at it that you will force fire sprinklers on a project that per code that does not require it based upon the information that the owner has provided for your review? And you wonder why the public has a problem with code officials overstepping?
It is not overstepping, nor is it mind reading.
We all agree that the code language is vague and does not provide a clear definition of the delineation of the space. Based upon that, it is up to the BO to make an interpretation of the code.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
There where a lot of things that where wrong and went wrong with that South Carolina fire that drove this requirement.
Not being allowed to divide a building into fire areas because of the contents that may be in the building to get the exception to sprinklers that is allowed in many other occupancy types is wrong and goes against the intent of the code regarding fire areas.
Not being allowed to divide a building into fire areas because of the contents that may be in the building to get the exception to sprinklers that is allowed in many other occupancy types is wrong and goes against the intent of the code regarding fire areas.
Yes, my friends call me Karnak.
I am not a code official, i am on the construction side. But i see people trying to game the system. Some of them post here, trying to find justification for not building to the proper specs. People are going to look for ways to reduce costs and increase profits. If they can put a little spin on the plans or zoning application form that will allow them to avoid $50k in sprinkler costs ... they are going to jump on it.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
This code section is too vague and seems impossible to enforce. There are a lot of large antique stores around my area. products change and are rearranged everyday. Also I don't see how it would be safer or be a less fire load if they pushed all the upholstered furniture together in one 5,000 sq. ft. area rather than have them spread throughout the occupancy. In fact with antiques having no fire-retardant gathered all together would seem to me to be more dangerous than if they were spread apart. It is obvious to me that if they were all pushed together if one would catch fire it would spread to the rest of the upholstered furniture, if they were spread out this would less likely to happen.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Second hand stores are another, sometimes you find a couch or two sometimes there is no furniture. We have educated them and they no longer sell used mattresses.
steveray
SAWHORSE
Less fire retardants in antiques but also less foam.....
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
Only needs to be 25 years old to be an antique
my250r11
Sawhorse
Here the Fire guys & building do new Business license inspections. Fire guys do annual inspection on all sprinkled businesses and every other year on the smaller ones. Plbg. & mech also on new businesses with any food made or sold. This is to help control the what ifs that may happen. As well as if we are in the community on our free time we call the on call fire or bldg. guys if we see violations.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
I finally talked to the AHJ (I'm just the 3rd party inspector) about this situation about upholstered furniture in this office supply store. I showed him the code:
A Group M occupancy used for the display and sale
of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5,000
square feet (464 m2).
He said he did not see a problem. The code says "for the display and sale". The upholstered desk chairs in the store are only on display and not for sale. If you want a chair that is on display you have to buy one that is in storage to pick up or get delivered. So that makes the chairs in the stock room do not count too because they are only for sale and not on display.
A Group M occupancy used for the display and sale
of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5,000
square feet (464 m2).
He said he did not see a problem. The code says "for the display and sale". The upholstered desk chairs in the store are only on display and not for sale. If you want a chair that is on display you have to buy one that is in storage to pick up or get delivered. So that makes the chairs in the stock room do not count too because they are only for sale and not on display.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Do you buy the chair in the storage room or the display. Are they separated occupancies? if not it is all a mercantile use
I thought I stretch it sometimes but this guy sounds like Gumby
I thought I stretch it sometimes but this guy sounds like Gumby
Gumby is a nice way of putting it. Putting on my Karnak hat again ... customer says he wants to buy that chair. Salesperson says ok, but out of stock at the moment, wait 3-4 weeks. But i can sell you the display chair as-is.
And is the stock room out back, or at a different location?
And is the stock room out back, or at a different location?
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
The store told the AHJ that the office chairs in the store (M) are not for sale, they are only for display to be looked to help customers decide which one they want. When the customer decide to buy one like the displayed chair you get the number of it and take it to the cashier and then they will sell you one in the stock room (S1).
steveray
SAWHORSE
Yeah but then the S1 gets sprinklered at 2500 ft per my post #7......?
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
I feel like I'm the only one with problems with upholstered furniture.
A new tenant that sells used furniture will be moving into a 3,000 sq. ft. tenant space strip mall. The tenant space was already a M. There all ready is a 3,000 sq. ft. store selling furniture in the same strip mall. Building is not sprinklered and is mixed with M and B occupancies. Would this be considered a change of occupancy for the whole building and the whole strip mall would have to be sprinklered now?
A new tenant that sells used furniture will be moving into a 3,000 sq. ft. tenant space strip mall. The tenant space was already a M. There all ready is a 3,000 sq. ft. store selling furniture in the same strip mall. Building is not sprinklered and is mixed with M and B occupancies. Would this be considered a change of occupancy for the whole building and the whole strip mall would have to be sprinklered now?
Rick, is the IEBC in play? If so, check out the IEBC's definition of "Change of Occupancy" below. Make note of #3.
[A] CHANGE OF OCCUPANCY. A change in the use of a building or a portion of a building that results in any of the following:
- A change of occupancy classification.
- A change from one group to another group within an occupancy classification.
- Any change in use within a group for which there is a change in application of the requirements of this code.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
These two furniture stores are in the same strip mall with a B occupancy in between. The two furniture stores will mean that there will be a total of about 6000 sq. ft. of furniture in a building with some upholstered furniture mixed in. The amount of upholstered furniture will be always changing so I don't think I could only count on how much upholstered furniture will be in the stores. Each tenant space could be considered an occupancy but also the building can be considered one mixed occupancy. Since the two furniture stores are in the same building am I right to add them together? The code does not seem to care if there are any spaces, rooms, walls, other occupancies, or fire protected walls in between.
If you read Section 903.2.7 carefully, you will notice how conditions 1-3 all clearly specify the fire area; however, condition 4 does not. It only indicates that where a Group M occupancy w/ upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5000sf fire sprinklers are required. So even if in different fire areas (which would require presence of fire barriers), then the requirement stands.
Now, you can take a more liberal read and hang-your-hat on the use of the word "a" in "Where a Group M occupancy ..." and suggest that each business is it's own occupancy. They share an occupancy classification, but are themselves separate occupancies. Thus, only if each tenant space is less than 2500sf, can fire sprinklers may be omitted.
Given that you indicated the the tenant space is 3000sf, I'd suggest requiring the sprinklers. That said, one could get even more creative, and classify 500sf or more of the building for use other than the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses. This would not be hard to do; i.e. add an office and bathrooms to get the display/storage area to sub 2500sf.
[F] 903.2.7 Group M
An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings containing a Group M occupancy, where one of the following conditions exists:
Now, you can take a more liberal read and hang-your-hat on the use of the word "a" in "Where a Group M occupancy ..." and suggest that each business is it's own occupancy. They share an occupancy classification, but are themselves separate occupancies. Thus, only if each tenant space is less than 2500sf, can fire sprinklers may be omitted.
Given that you indicated the the tenant space is 3000sf, I'd suggest requiring the sprinklers. That said, one could get even more creative, and classify 500sf or more of the building for use other than the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses. This would not be hard to do; i.e. add an office and bathrooms to get the display/storage area to sub 2500sf.
[F] 903.2.7 Group M
An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings containing a Group M occupancy, where one of the following conditions exists:
- A Group M fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2).
- A Group M fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane.
- The combined area of all Group M fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2).
- Where a Group M occupancy that is used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5000 square feet (464 m2).