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indyarchyguy

Registered User
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
127
Location
United States
Here is the situation:

1. Existing Building - 4th Floor
2. New Tenant with HIGH SECURITY NEEDS
3. Elevator Lobby served by (3) elevator grouping
4. Fire stairs - Accessible via Office area - not through Elevator Lobby
5. 2012 IBC with Amendments

I have provided a sketch of the area. I cannot use the actual docs due to security issues.

Scope:
Owner must have security as they cannot allow general occupants on to the floor and into their office space due to the high security needs of their client's data. If anyone gets on the floor, they have to contact every client to tell them they had a possible data breach...no exception. Design calls for you exit off the elevators. The new all glass (frameless) doors and sidelights enclose the lobby. There are egress lights (with arrows) which point you to the glass doors and additional lighting directing you to the fire stair which is immediately adjacent to the elevator lobby, inside the office area.

Glass door hardware consists of maglock (failsafe open), stationary horizontal bar, key fob swipe, occupant sensor on the office side of the door. Standard operation is when you get off the elevator, you swipe your fob and you can enter the office as a credentialed occupant. If you leave the office via the elevator the occupancy sensor trips and releases the maglock, you open the door and walk into the lobby to get on to the elevator. If there is a fire alarm, the power to the maglock is shunted to failssafe open, you exit the lobby via the door and

Issue:
The local AHJ (Fire) states that people cannot get out of the lobby at any time. I have explained that due to the security of the situation and client, that is not practical, nor required by code based on my interpretation of 1008.1.9.9, we do comply with the requirements for a locked egress door. The elevators in grouping must work at all times. Even if there is maintenance being performed code does not allow for shutting down all the elevators in an occupied building. I have copied 1008.1.9.9 as follows:

"1008.1.9.9 Electromagnetically locked egress doors. Doors in the means of egress in buildings with an occupancy in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, and doors to tenant spaces in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, shall be permitted to be electromagnetically locked if equipped with listed hardware that incorporates a built-in switch and meet the requirements below:
1. The listed hardware that is affixed to the door leaf has an obvious method of operation that is readily operated under all lighting conditions.
2. The listed hardware is capable of being operated with one hand.
3. Operation of the listed hardware directly interrupts the power to the electromagnetic lock and
unlocks the door immediately.
4. Loss of power to the listed hardware automatically unlocks the door.
5. Where panic or fire exit hardware is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or fire exit hardware also releases the electro-magnetic lock."

My interp is as follows:
1. We are B-Occupancy
2. The stationary bar on the door is obvious and is in well-lit condition.
3. The maglock is UL Listed and will shunt to failsafe open with power interruption or fire alarm notification.
4. Loss of power automatically unlocks the door.
5. The bar does not lock the door therefore has no latch and doesn't need to operate the maglock.

We have installed this same scenario in literally dozens of buildings throughout the state. THOUGHTS?
 

Attachments

  • EL LOBBY.pdf
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The state office building I used to work in had a similar setup. They installed delayed egress hardware (IBC 1010.1.9.7).

Is there any way to locate one of the partitions so there is direct access from the elevator lobby to one of the stairs?
 
Here is the situation:

1. Existing Building - 4th Floor
2. New Tenant with HIGH SECURITY NEEDS
3. Elevator Lobby served by (3) elevator grouping
4. Fire stairs - Accessible via Office area - not through Elevator Lobby
5. 2012 IBC with Amendments

I have provided a sketch of the area. I cannot use the actual docs due to security issues.

Scope:
Owner must have security as they cannot allow general occupants on to the floor and into their office space due to the high security needs of their client's data. If anyone gets on the floor, they have to contact every client to tell them they had a possible data breach...no exception. Design calls for you exit off the elevators. The new all glass (frameless) doors and sidelights enclose the lobby. There are egress lights (with arrows) which point you to the glass doors and additional lighting directing you to the fire stair which is immediately adjacent to the elevator lobby, inside the office area.

Glass door hardware consists of maglock (failsafe open), stationary horizontal bar, key fob swipe, occupant sensor on the office side of the door. Standard operation is when you get off the elevator, you swipe your fob and you can enter the office as a credentialed occupant. If you leave the office via the elevator the occupancy sensor trips and releases the maglock, you open the door and walk into the lobby to get on to the elevator. If there is a fire alarm, the power to the maglock is shunted to failssafe open, you exit the lobby via the door and

Issue:
The local AHJ (Fire) states that people cannot get out of the lobby at any time. I have explained that due to the security of the situation and client, that is not practical, nor required by code based on my interpretation of 1008.1.9.9, we do comply with the requirements for a locked egress door. The elevators in grouping must work at all times. Even if there is maintenance being performed code does not allow for shutting down all the elevators in an occupied building. I have copied 1008.1.9.9 as follows:

"1008.1.9.9 Electromagnetically locked egress doors. Doors in the means of egress in buildings with an occupancy in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, and doors to tenant spaces in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, shall be permitted to be electromagnetically locked if equipped with listed hardware that incorporates a built-in switch and meet the requirements below:
1. The listed hardware that is affixed to the door leaf has an obvious method of operation that is readily operated under all lighting conditions.
2. The listed hardware is capable of being operated with one hand.
3. Operation of the listed hardware directly interrupts the power to the electromagnetic lock and
unlocks the door immediately.
4. Loss of power to the listed hardware automatically unlocks the door.
5. Where panic or fire exit hardware is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or fire exit hardware also releases the electro-magnetic lock."

My interp is as follows:
1. We are B-Occupancy
2. The stationary bar on the door is obvious and is in well-lit condition.
3. The maglock is UL Listed and will shunt to failsafe open with power interruption or fire alarm notification.
4. Loss of power automatically unlocks the door.
5. The bar does not lock the door therefore has no latch and doesn't need to operate the maglock.

We have installed this same scenario in literally dozens of buildings throughout the state. THOUGHTS?


Is there only one tenant on the floor??

Are they required rated doors?
 
Here is the situation:

1. Existing Building - 4th Floor
2. New Tenant with HIGH SECURITY NEEDS
3. Elevator Lobby served by (3) elevator grouping
4. Fire stairs - Accessible via Office area - not through Elevator Lobby
5. 2012 IBC with Amendments

I have provided a sketch of the area. I cannot use the actual docs due to security issues.

Scope:
Owner must have security as they cannot allow general occupants on to the floor and into their office space due to the high security needs of their client's data. If anyone gets on the floor, they have to contact every client to tell them they had a possible data breach...no exception. Design calls for you exit off the elevators. The new all glass (frameless) doors and sidelights enclose the lobby. There are egress lights (with arrows) which point you to the glass doors and additional lighting directing you to the fire stair which is immediately adjacent to the elevator lobby, inside the office area.

Glass door hardware consists of maglock (failsafe open), stationary horizontal bar, key fob swipe, occupant sensor on the office side of the door. Standard operation is when you get off the elevator, you swipe your fob and you can enter the office as a credentialed occupant. If you leave the office via the elevator the occupancy sensor trips and releases the maglock, you open the door and walk into the lobby to get on to the elevator. If there is a fire alarm, the power to the maglock is shunted to failssafe open, you exit the lobby via the door and

Issue:
The local AHJ (Fire) states that people cannot get out of the lobby at any time. I have explained that due to the security of the situation and client, that is not practical, nor required by code based on my interpretation of 1008.1.9.9, we do comply with the requirements for a locked egress door. The elevators in grouping must work at all times. Even if there is maintenance being performed code does not allow for shutting down all the elevators in an occupied building. I have copied 1008.1.9.9 as follows:

"1008.1.9.9 Electromagnetically locked egress doors. Doors in the means of egress in buildings with an occupancy in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, and doors to tenant spaces in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, shall be permitted to be electromagnetically locked if equipped with listed hardware that incorporates a built-in switch and meet the requirements below:
1. The listed hardware that is affixed to the door leaf has an obvious method of operation that is readily operated under all lighting conditions.
2. The listed hardware is capable of being operated with one hand.
3. Operation of the listed hardware directly interrupts the power to the electromagnetic lock and
unlocks the door immediately.
4. Loss of power to the listed hardware automatically unlocks the door.
5. Where panic or fire exit hardware is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or fire exit hardware also releases the electro-magnetic lock."

My interp is as follows:
1. We are B-Occupancy
2. The stationary bar on the door is obvious and is in well-lit condition.
3. The maglock is UL Listed and will shunt to failsafe open with power interruption or fire alarm notification.
4. Loss of power automatically unlocks the door.
5. The bar does not lock the door therefore has no latch and doesn't need to operate the maglock.

We have installed this same scenario in literally dozens of buildings throughout the state. THOUGHTS?


So are they remodeling the floor for the new tenant???

Or just adding security?
 
Here is the situation:

1. Existing Building - 4th Floor
2. New Tenant with HIGH SECURITY NEEDS
3. Elevator Lobby served by (3) elevator grouping
4. Fire stairs - Accessible via Office area - not through Elevator Lobby
5. 2012 IBC with Amendments

I have provided a sketch of the area. I cannot use the actual docs due to security issues.

Scope:
Owner must have security as they cannot allow general occupants on to the floor and into their office space due to the high security needs of their client's data. If anyone gets on the floor, they have to contact every client to tell them they had a possible data breach...no exception. Design calls for you exit off the elevators. The new all glass (frameless) doors and sidelights enclose the lobby. There are egress lights (with arrows) which point you to the glass doors and additional lighting directing you to the fire stair which is immediately adjacent to the elevator lobby, inside the office area.

Glass door hardware consists of maglock (failsafe open), stationary horizontal bar, key fob swipe, occupant sensor on the office side of the door. Standard operation is when you get off the elevator, you swipe your fob and you can enter the office as a credentialed occupant. If you leave the office via the elevator the occupancy sensor trips and releases the maglock, you open the door and walk into the lobby to get on to the elevator. If there is a fire alarm, the power to the maglock is shunted to failssafe open, you exit the lobby via the door and

Issue:
The local AHJ (Fire) states that people cannot get out of the lobby at any time. I have explained that due to the security of the situation and client, that is not practical, nor required by code based on my interpretation of 1008.1.9.9, we do comply with the requirements for a locked egress door. The elevators in grouping must work at all times. Even if there is maintenance being performed code does not allow for shutting down all the elevators in an occupied building. I have copied 1008.1.9.9 as follows:

"1008.1.9.9 Electromagnetically locked egress doors. Doors in the means of egress in buildings with an occupancy in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, and doors to tenant spaces in Group A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2, shall be permitted to be electromagnetically locked if equipped with listed hardware that incorporates a built-in switch and meet the requirements below:
1. The listed hardware that is affixed to the door leaf has an obvious method of operation that is readily operated under all lighting conditions.
2. The listed hardware is capable of being operated with one hand.
3. Operation of the listed hardware directly interrupts the power to the electromagnetic lock and
unlocks the door immediately.
4. Loss of power to the listed hardware automatically unlocks the door.
5. Where panic or fire exit hardware is required by Section 1008.1.10, operation of the listed panic or fire exit hardware also releases the electro-magnetic lock."

My interp is as follows:
1. We are B-Occupancy
2. The stationary bar on the door is obvious and is in well-lit condition.
3. The maglock is UL Listed and will shunt to failsafe open with power interruption or fire alarm notification.
4. Loss of power automatically unlocks the door.
5. The bar does not lock the door therefore has no latch and doesn't need to operate the maglock.

We have installed this same scenario in literally dozens of buildings throughout the state. THOUGHTS?

This may be a situation that it may help for you to arrange to have the AHJ look at a similar set up elsewhere - ones you have installed elsewhere in the state as you said - so they can see how it works.
 
This may be a situation that it may help for you to arrange to have the AHJ look at a similar set up elsewhere - ones you have installed elsewhere in the state as you said - so they can see how it works.

Thoughts:

Option 1:

Any way that controlled access can be done starting at ground floor lobby instead or at the elevator itself?

Having people already properly badged and/or escorted at ground floor lobby reception will be more secure.
The other layer of security would then be another key fob terminal inside elevator that allows access to the floor in question.

Doing so will allow for secured floor to be open.

Option 2:

Secured floor elevator lobby still as you show it but panic hardware from elevator lobby will have latch and is connected to visual and audible alarm. Panic hardware will always allow for exit from elevator lobby.
Unauthorized entrants will trip visual and audible alarm that will preferably be distinct from fire alarm as to clearly denote trespassing and will call for action right at that point.
Key fob will log credentials and disarm visual and audible alarm for authorized personnel.


Option 3:

Expand elevator lobby to include stairway access. This will effectively divide office into two and will just require people to use their key fob when they re-enter any of the office zones from the elevator lobby.

You can still opt to have the exit panic hardware tied to a visual and audio alarm to take care of people who are visitors who may not have key fobs and would need to be escorted in and out. That would prevent these people from leaving/ sneaking out....
 
Have not delved into the details, but unless you can guarantee that any individual can not accidentally or on purpose follow someone off the elevator or somehow find their way into this secured elevator lobby with no access to the required stair then you will not be able to adequately secure the suite and provide an exit for this trapped person. You cannot realistically control access at the elevator to ensure this does not occur. Fire life safety trumps whatever data security they may believe is important. alarmed panic hardware, but after hours who will respond?
 
The new all glass (frameless) doors and sidelights enclose the lobby... Glass door hardware consists of maglock (failsafe open), stationary horizontal bar, key fob swipe, occupant sensor on the office side of the door. ...
If you leave the office via the elevator the occupancy sensor trips and releases the maglock, you open the door and walk into the lobby to get on to the elevator... THOUGHTS?

We used to have our office located inside a bank building that had this same setup at their entrance lobby. One weekend my business partner showed up with his 10-year-old son in tow to drop off a document, and he realized he forgot his FOB.

His 10 year-old son said "no problem!", grabbed a manila envelope from his dad's hand, stuck it partway through the narrow gap at frameless glass door jamb, and waved it up and down a couple of times. Bingo! The interior occupancy sensor unlocked the maglock and let them right in.

My partner said he was simultaneously both impressed with and worried about his son's devious mind.

His son grew up and is now an officer in the military.
 
The state office building I used to work in had a similar setup. They installed delayed egress hardware (IBC 1010.1.9.7).

Is there any way to locate one of the partitions so there is direct access from the elevator lobby to one of the stairs?

No. Not without compromising the security into the office area. We looked at the delayed egress lock. The problem with that is while it does delay the access, the problem is anybody can still walk in after waiting...end up with the same issue for the client, security is compromised and they have to notify all of their clients that there has been a breach in security. Granted, most likely they don't see or hear anything, but the law requires them to notify all of their clients.
 
Thoughts:

Option 1:

Any way that controlled access can be done starting at ground floor lobby instead or at the elevator itself?

Having people already properly badged and/or escorted at ground floor lobby reception will be more secure.
The other layer of security would then be another key fob terminal inside elevator that allows access to the floor in question.

Doing so will allow for secured floor to be open.

Option 2:

Secured floor elevator lobby still as you show it but panic hardware from elevator lobby will have latch and is connected to visual and audible alarm. Panic hardware will always allow for exit from elevator lobby.
Unauthorized entrants will trip visual and audible alarm that will preferably be distinct from fire alarm as to clearly denote trespassing and will call for action right at that point.
Key fob will log credentials and disarm visual and audible alarm for authorized personnel.


Option 3:

Expand elevator lobby to include stairway access. This will effectively divide office into two and will just require people to use their key fob when they re-enter any of the office zones from the elevator lobby.

You can still opt to have the exit panic hardware tied to a visual and audio alarm to take care of people who are visitors who may not have key fobs and would need to be escorted in and out. That would prevent these people from leaving/ sneaking out....

THANK YOU FOR THE FEEDBACK

Option 1 Response: Believe it or not, you have to badge in the elevator to allow you access to the floor. You can't get off on the floor without it. However, the client thinks people will piggy-back others unbeknownst to those with access on the floor (I am unsure how, but it's not my call). The rest of the building has different tenants, not just this one.

Option 2 Response: We brought that up. I was told no. They don't have someone on site watching monitors / alarms, etc. So it only trips at the security office elsewhere.

Option 3 Response: They do not want this as an available option. We proposed new doors just beyond the stairwell and corridor, not an option due to workflow. Again, frustrating.
 
We used to have our office located inside a bank building that had this same setup at their entrance lobby. One weekend my business partner showed up with his 10-year-old son in tow to drop off a document, and he realized he forgot his FOB.

His 10 year-old son said "no problem!", grabbed a manila envelope from his dad's hand, stuck it partway through the narrow gap at frameless glass door jamb, and waved it up and down a couple of times. Bingo! The interior occupancy sensor unlocked the maglock and let them right in.

My partner said he was simultaneously both impressed with and worried about his son's devious mind.

His son grew up and is now an officer in the military.


THAT is ingenious!!! Holy cow. He's probably now in charge of a SEAL team. :)
 
Have not delved into the details, but unless you can guarantee that any individual can not accidentally or on purpose follow someone off the elevator or somehow find their way into this secured elevator lobby with no access to the required stair then you will not be able to adequately secure the suite and provide an exit for this trapped person. You cannot realistically control access at the elevator to ensure this does not occur. Fire life safety trumps whatever data security they may believe is important. alarmed panic hardware, but after hours who will respond?


I understand your point, however it isn't an issue we haven't already reviewed with State Elevator Inspectors and Code Review. You can always call the elevator. The elevators do not all shut down at once. If they do that means the power is off and so is the maglock. Elevator code does not allow simultaneous shut down of all elevators. This has been installed dozens if not hundreds of office spaces in the state. This also was reviewed by both the state and city plan reviews and passed to allow construction. This only came up just before the owner was to occupy. Has thrown a complete wrench into the entire process in the 23rd hour. No comments. Interesting how it comes up this late...
 
This may be a situation that it may help for you to arrange to have the AHJ look at a similar set up elsewhere - ones you have installed elsewhere in the state as you said - so they can see how it works.


Yes. He doesn't care and won't go see one. Even though I am well aware he has inspected at least 10-20 of the existing situations located within his jurisdiction.
 
Seems like your #3 doesn't fit.....

3. Operation of the listed hardware directly interrupts the power to the electromagnetic lock and
unlocks the door immediately.


My thought on that, is that it does. The sensor, the key fob, fire alarm or power interruption releases the lock. That is the operation of the listed hardware. The bar on the door does not operate the maglock because it is not latched. Everything works as per UL.
 
THANK YOU FOR THE FEEDBACK

Option 1 Response: Believe it or not, you have to badge in the elevator to allow you access to the floor. You can't get off on the floor without it. However, the client thinks people will piggy-back others unbeknownst to those with access on the floor (I am unsure how, but it's not my call). The rest of the building has different tenants, not just this one.

Option 2 Response: We brought that up. I was told no. They don't have someone on site watching monitors / alarms, etc. So it only trips at the security office elsewhere.

Option 3 Response: They do not want this as an available option. We proposed new doors just beyond the stairwell and corridor, not an option due to workflow. Again, frustrating.



Option 3 is the route

Code requires access to one stair

No exceptions
 
Clients wants, convince do not override the code, there are plenty of business with key for access required to get into a different part of their occupancy. Also, it seems that only one stairway needs to be accessible from the elevator lobby so there is an uninterrupted connection on the other side. Credentials have moved to cell phone enabled methods one less thing for the user to carry.

edited sspelling
 
Last edited:
shall be permitted to be locked with an
electromagnetic locking system where equipped with
hardware that incorporates a built-in switch and where
installed and operated in accordance with all of the following:


I would not be too quick to swallow the electronic stuff as "hardware" but this would be a good one for Lori.....
 
Revised for 2018.....

1010.1.9.10 Door hardware release of electrically locked
egress doors.
Door hardware release of electric locking systems
shall be permitted on doors in the means of egress in any
occupancy except Group H where installed and operated in
accordance with all of the following:
1. The door hardware that is affixed to the door leaf has an
obvious method of operation that is readily operated
under all lighting conditions.
2. The door hardware is capable of being operated with
one hand and shall comply with Section 1010.1.9.6.
3. Operation of the door hardware directly interrupts the
power to the electric lock and unlocks the door immediately.
4. Loss of power to the electric locking system automatically
unlocks the door.
5. Where panic or fire exit hardware is required by Section
1010.1.10, operation of the panic or fire exit hardware
also releases the electric lock.
6. The locking system units shall be listed in accordance
with UL 294.
This section is intended to provide consistent requirements
where an electrically locked system, such as
an electromagnetic lock, is released by door-mounted
hardware such as a panic bar, lockset/latchset or
touch-sense bar, all of which would be equipped with
an integral switch that, when actuated by opening the
door, causes the electric lock to release, allowing
immediate egress.
In other than Group H, doors in
the means of egress are permitted to be locked with
an electric locking system where equipped with door
hardware that incorporates a built-in switch, provided
all the specified conditions are met. Additionally,
doors to tenant spaces other than Group H may be
equipped with electric locks, provided all of the specified
conditions are met. The use of this type of locking
system may provide for a greater degree of security,
preventing or controlling access or ingress, than that
afforded by a door with mechanical locking devices
alone. The allowance for electrically locked egress
doors is limited to low- and moderate-hazard occupancies
where security may be a concern.
It may be important to note other “shall be permitted”
locking arrangements in the code that also use
electric locks as part of their system: controlled
egress locking systems (Section 1010.1.9.7), delayed
egress locking systems (Section 1010.1.9.8), and
sensor release of electrically locked egress doors
(Section 1010.1.9.9).
The requirements of this section apply to electric
locking systems that unlock upon hardware activation.
The functions of a controlled ingress locking system
are not addressed in the codes and are unrelated
as long as egress is provided as required or permitted
by this section and other applicable provisions of
the code.
In areas where additional security may be a concern,
a door hardware system may include an unlocking
device, such as a keypad, card reader, eye
scanner, thumbprint scanner or other credential
device (see Section 1010.1.9.3).
When the occupant prepares to egress through the
door, the method of operating the door hardware
must be obvious, even under poor lighting conditions.
The operation shall be accomplished through the use
of a single motion and meet the general requirement
that the door be readily openable without the use of
special knowledge or effort. The release of the electric
lock on the door must occur immediately on the
operation of the door hardware by interrupting the
power supply to the electric lock. This requirement is
the same regardless of the type of door hardware:
panic hardware, fire exit hardware, a latchset/lockset
 
THANK YOU FOR THE FEEDBACK

Option 1 Response: Believe it or not, you have to badge in the elevator to allow you access to the floor. You can't get off on the floor without it. However, the client thinks people will piggy-back others unbeknownst to those with access on the floor (I am unsure how, but it's not my call). The rest of the building has different tenants, not just this one.

Option 2 Response: We brought that up. I was told no. They don't have someone on site watching monitors / alarms, etc. So it only trips at the security office elsewhere.

Option 3 Response: They do not want this as an available option. We proposed new doors just beyond the stairwell and corridor, not an option due to workflow. Again, frustrating.

Wow. Yes, very frustrating.

I've had the experience of living a good number of years in a major international hub and what you proposed and these options I shared are all pretty standard with most offices of multi-national companies.

The main problem I see here is that the client does not see that everyone in their company actually plays a part in security and is relying on things to just automatically happen. Doors are only one part of what should be a security chain that should also be supported by a company's operational protocols.

Tailgating will always be a concern which is why most places do Option 1 where people outside of the company present their credentials at main lobby and are issued appropriate badges there. Security starts way before they get into the elevators. The requirement for escorting also ensures that people identify their purpose and to whom they will be meeting again at point of entry into the building and ensures that someone will get them from the main lobby and accompany them into the elevators. No assigned escort or badge clearly marks someone as not belonging so yes... how can someone then sneak "unbeknownst" to people from the office...

No video cameras to do 24/7 monitoring? People at the office by their nature will not even do the minimum of calling out someone without a badge or unescorted roaming around the office? When office is unoccupied, they don't lock the office floor? They can't configure the alarm to trigger within the actual office to alert their own employees of a security breach? They can't coordinate with building security?

There's a million ways to skin a cat but looks like they are unwilling to explore anything else.

If it is at all possible, they may want to expose themselves to practices by other companies that may inform them of other options especially in light of AHJ not willing to work with current proposal. Someone needs to budge and unfortunately it's the AHJ with the advantage at this point.

Personally from my experience, maglocks are not the best if they are relying on it as a main physical barrier. A good yank or pull is all you need to overcome it (I've seen it happen quite a few times). Reality is that it needs to work within a system.

Good luck with this. Frustrating indeed.
 
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