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Importance of Permit and Inspection Approval for Re-roof work?

There is confusion as to the concept of standard of care. The question of standard of care is only relevant if the City has a duty to the individual building owner. In general across this country building departments do not have such a duty and as such they have no liability.

Further if a duty does exist the City is not in a position to reduce its standard of care since that is something determined by the courts.
 
Don't think so. I am just an inspector working for a 3rd party inspection company where the jurisdiction uses 5 different 3rd party inspection company's with a 6th one acting as the Code Official.

5 different 3rd party’s. Holly Mother of Pearl. Is the muni that large or they like to keep everyone guessing? Then a 6th as BCO, ROFL they can have it!
 
Actually it's a small township. I guess the supervisors want the contractors to choose who they want. I have all the certs to inspect everything. It's weird when different inspection company's do different inspections on the same project. Today I did a kitchen hood and ansul fire suppression inspection where every thing else was done by other 3rd party's on a burned down restaurant. Last week I did all inspections on a tenant fit-out but a different 3rd party did the sprinklers. Last month I just did everything for a restaurant including the kitchen hood while a different 3rd party just did the ansul fire suppression for the hood.

It must be tough for the BCO to keep track. We use to be the BCO and the only one to do inspections. I knew all projects that are going on in the township and if I saw construction when driving around I knew if they had a permit or not. Now I don't know or care.
 
If no permit is required, the municipality has limited their standard of care in that there is no reasonable expectation for the municipality to police sub-standard work, unless staffing, impact to life safety, etc. leads the court to conclude that the municipality should be permitting and inspecting these items.

State law only requires a permit on existing houses if there is something structural going on which would include the roof sheeting.
Most contractors seem honest about this but I don't go around to check. Sometimes they don't know if the sheeting needs replacing until they take the shingles off. I knew of one roofer that always got a permit before he even knew if he had to replace any sheeting.
The local municipal is aloud to have sticker codes if approved by the state.
You can rewire, install an electrical service, install new mechanical system, finish a basement, all new plumbing, reroof a house, replace all the insulation and drywall, replace siding or windows, build a 1,000 sq. ft. unattached garage or accessory building without a permit in most places in PA. But as soon as you drill a hole in a supporting wall stud in a house you need a permit. And we are not the police to check this.
 
Hi all,

Please excuse my lack of knowledge in the subject matter. I just had my house re-roofed and am about to make my final payment. A contractor friend of mine told me to request the permit and the inspection approval.

The contractors have scheduled the pickup for the final payment and it was then that I had asked for these two items. I was told that once my payment clears they will come back with the requested items.

My thoughts/questions:

Is it normal to withhold the permit and approval until the final payment clears? I don't see why they can't just give it to me at the time I give them the check. It makes me feel as if they never got a permit/inspection to begin with (they had mentioned both will be done in our contract)

Is the permit/inspection even important once the job is done roofing washinton dc? The same contractor friend told me it's only useful during the job in case the city finds out. They basically serve no purpose now and not to worry if I don't get it.

The company itself seems to be fairly big and has multiple locations so it's not like I will ever be in a situation where I can never reach them again if a problem occurs.

What are your thoughts? Should I even care at this point?

Thanks in advance.
So I am starting to work on my garage more and more and considering a new roof in the spring as well as finishing painting the exterior and new soffits and fascias.

I want to do work to code and do a good job.

My buddies and I have roofed over 20 houses in our township for friends and never pulled permits. The township doesn't really check or say anything.

I want to get a roofing permit in the spring, but will the inspector look at other things as well? Do I need to state the fascia work as well?
 
What is Normal

What should have happened is

Said contractor should have gotten a permit prior to showing up/ work

Said permit should have been posted at your house.

Said permit would have generated an inspection,,,

Which said contractor should have arranged, and been there for.

I am not a roof inspector, so not sure if it requires more than one inspection.


What you can do and I do is call the city/ permit / building department Give them your address and ask if there are any type of permits there.

My guess the answer will be NO
If the answer is NO your response will be no permit no payment. Call for a meeting on site with the Building Official and the contractor.

When dealing with contractors it is always a good idea to have a lawyer you can call for advice. While most contractors are honorable it never hurts to be able to play hard ball if needed.
 
Inspectors are supposed to look at the work covered by the permit. If an inspector comes to look at a new roof, he will not have any reason to inspect your basement recreation room. Yes, if you plan to replace the fascia with the roof that should be on the permit.

Keep in mind that if you have any blatantly visible code violations that the inspector can see without making any special effort (like, if for example your electricy has been cut off so you jumpered the meter socket) he is within his rights (and is basically doing his duty) to cite those violations.

Also keep in mind that if you decide to sell your house, a title search company may want to see all permits and inspection sign-offs for all work done. I work in a town with a population of a bit more than 40,000. Two years ago we had to hire a half-time administrative assistant whose job consists of NOTHING other than responding to FOI requests for permits, certificates of occupancy, and certificates of completion pertaining to work done on houses that are up for sale. To a title searcher (and the wife of one of our ABOs just happens to work for a title search company, so we get the inside skinny), a recent re-roof or kitchen replacement or anything of that nature without a permit and a v=certificate of completion is the kiss of death for the deal.
 
Inspectors are supposed to look at the work covered by the permit. If an inspector comes to look at a new roof, he will not have any reason to inspect your basement recreation room. Yes, if you plan to replace the fascia with the roof that should be on the permit.

Keep in mind that if you have any blatantly visible code violations that the inspector can see without making any special effort (like, if for example your electricy has been cut off so you jumpered the meter socket) he is within his rights (and is basically doing his duty) to cite those violations.

Also keep in mind that if you decide to sell your house, a title search company may want to see all permits and inspection sign-offs for all work done. I work in a town with a population of a bit more than 40,000. Two years ago we had to hire a half-time administrative assistant whose job consists of NOTHING other than responding to FOI requests for permits, certificates of occupancy, and certificates of completion pertaining to work done on houses that are up for sale. To a title searcher (and the wife of one of our ABOs just happens to work for a title search company, so we get the inside skinny), a recent re-roof or kitchen replacement or anything of that nature without a permit and a v=certificate of completion is the kiss of death for the deal.
All good points, I'll add that if work done without permits (poorly done electrical work for example) causes damage to the building, the insurance company may use that as justification for non-payment.

So I am starting to work on my garage more and more and considering a new roof in the spring as well as finishing painting the exterior and new soffits and fascias.

I want to do work to code and do a good job.

My buddies and I have roofed over 20 houses in our township for friends and never pulled permits. The township doesn't really check or say anything.

I want to get a roofing permit in the spring, but will the inspector look at other things as well? Do I need to state the fascia work as well?
I see your location is UK, things may be very different there, best check your local regs.
 
Sooner or later, every building gets a re-roof. Weekends are the best time for that. Permits are required in some places... not required in some places and optional in most places. Some jurisdictions require a sheathing inspection, an in progress inspection and a final inspection. Some will not perform any inspections but keep a record of the re-roof ( City of Las Angeles is an example).

I haven't a preference. I appreciated inspecting re-roofs because it's an easy stop on a busy day... I might get some unusual pictures of the neighborhood.

There are things to consider with roofers. They have an arduous task in front of them every day. The Sun cooks them ... after a few years it shows. They are but a few steps from the end of the plank so it's best to not push too hard.
 
Owner keeps chasing contractor for building permit. Contractor keeps making excuses. Owner shows up at our office and we inform them that they do not have a permit. We work with the home owner to ensure their project meets code (contractor usually gets fired).

We actually have a very serious example of that happening right now. Won't go into details, but it's almost inevitable that lawyers will be involved at some point.

If no permit is required, the municipality has limited their standard of care in that there is no reasonable expectation for the municipality to police sub-standard work, unless staffing, impact to life safety, etc. leads the court to conclude that the municipality should be permitting and inspecting these items.

The authority having jurisdiction could be called upon to make a judgement on if the construction does comply with the code.

We have a policy that re-roofing is not something we require permits for - we just don't have the resources. Lordy, I wouldn't want to start enforcing that - we have enough problems with "I live in the sticks, I never needed no permit!" as it is.
 
The website for DALY CITY, CA says permits are required for roofing and re-roofing. Application is attached to this message.
 

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All good points, I'll add that if work done without permits (poorly done electrical work for example) causes damage to the building, the insurance company may use that as justification for non-payment.


I see your location is UK, things may be very different there, best check your local regs.

Thanks. I didn't notice the location.
 
Sooner or later, every building gets a re-roof. Weekends are the best time for that. Permits are required in some places... not required in some places and optional in most places. Some jurisdictions require a sheathing inspection, an in progress inspection and a final inspection. Some will not perform any inspections but keep a record of the re-roof ( City of Las Angeles is an example).

The ICC version of the IRC does not exempt reroofing from permits. Unless a jurisdiction has revised the section of work exempt from permit, any jurisdiction that doesn't require a permit for reroofing isn't enforcing the code.
 
The ICC version of the IRC does not exempt reroofing from permits. Unless a jurisdiction has revised the section of work exempt from permit, any jurisdiction that doesn't require a permit for reroofing isn't enforcing the code.
I agree with the sentiment, but I think a Building Official could interpret things differently for their jurisdiction:

2022 CRC
R104.1 General
The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.
R105.2.2 Repairs
Application or notice to the building official is not required for ordinary repairs to structures, replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles. Such repairs shall not include the cutting away of any wall, partition or portion thereof, the removal or cutting of any structural beam or load-bearing support, or the removal or change of any required means of egress, or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the egress requirements; nor shall ordinary repairs include addition to, alteration of, replacement or relocation of any water supply, sewer, drainage, drain leader, gas, soil, waste, vent or similar piping, electric wiring or mechanical or other work affecting public health or general safety.


I think a strong argument could be made that a simple re-roof is an ordinary repair, it doesn't violate any of the rest of R105.2.2. I'm in CA but our jurisdiction and all the others around us have always required a permit for re-roofs and almost nobody complains. Occasionally we get someone from out of the area say that it wasn't required where they came from, but they usually don't argue it. Pay the fee and move on.
 
The website for DALY CITY, CA says permits are required for roofing and re-roofing. Application is attached to this message.
The OP was from Daly City and came here once on 6-9-2020. The person that resurrected the thread is from the United Kingdom.
 
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I agree with the sentiment, but I think a Building Official could interpret things differently for their jurisdiction:

2022 CRC
R104.1 General
The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.
R105.2.2 Repairs
Application or notice to the building official is not required for ordinary repairs to structures, replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles. Such repairs shall not include the cutting away of any wall, partition or portion thereof, the removal or cutting of any structural beam or load-bearing support, or the removal or change of any required means of egress, or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the egress requirements; nor shall ordinary repairs include addition to, alteration of, replacement or relocation of any water supply, sewer, drainage, drain leader, gas, soil, waste, vent or similar piping, electric wiring or mechanical or other work affecting public health or general safety.


I think a strong argument could be made that a simple re-roof is an ordinary repair, it doesn't violate any of the rest of R105.2.2. I'm in CA but our jurisdiction and all the others around us have always required a permit for re-roofs and almost nobody complains. Occasionally we get someone from out of the area say that it wasn't required where they came from, but they usually don't argue it. Pay the fee and move on.

I disagree and I think the code disagrees. Even if you consider a complete roof replacement a "repair," the code requires permits for repairs unless listed as exempt for permit:

R105.1 Required. Any owner or owner’s authorized agent
who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish
or change the occupancy of a building or structure, or to
erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace
any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation
of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such
work to be performed, shall first make application to the building
official and obtain the required permit.

Work exempt from permit is listed in R105.2. The list does not mention roofing or reroofing.

And I found what I was remembering. Under R105.2 for Buildings, my state added a number 11, which allows replacing up to 25% of a roof without a permit. The ICC model IRC ends with number 10.
 
I disagree and I think the code disagrees. Even if you consider a complete roof replacement a "repair," the code requires permits for repairs unless listed as exempt for permit:
I agree with you, and I'm glad it's not an issue in my area. My only point was that the code gives the BO the authority to render interpretations and set policies. A BO is fully within their rights to make a determination like that for their jurisdiction. We may not agree with it, but there's a lot going on out there that I don't agree with.
 
It may be a stretch to call a re-roof of an IRC structure an ordinary repair and therefore a permit is not required. Roof covering, siding, sheet rock, tile and a number of other installations are not required inspections within the IRC. We are an enterprise fund as required by the state. Our fees are related to the work we perform. If we are not doing an inspection, then we should not be charging for a permit. The types of inspection you can properly do over and above the required inspections is limited by time and staff levels that you have available. Our priority for establishing non-code required inspections are life safety items first and foremost.

R105.2.2 Repairs.
Application or notice to the building official is not required for ordinary repairs to structures, replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles. Such repairs shall not include the cutting away of any wall, partition or portion thereof, the removal or cutting of any structural beam or load-bearing support, or the removal or change of any required means of egress, or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the egress requirements; nor shall ordinary repairs include addition to, alteration of, replacement or relocation of any water supply, sewer, drainage, drain leader, gas, soil, waste, vent or similar piping, electric wiring or mechanical or other work affecting public health or general safety.

R109.1.5 Other inspections.
In addition to inspections in Sections R109.1.1 through R109.1.4, the building official shall have the authority to make or require any other inspections to ascertain compliance with this code and other laws enforced by the building official.
 
Reroofing inspections are only useful if they are done when the old roof is removed, to check for bad sheathing, and while the new roof is going on, to check for valley flashing, ice barrier, and proper nailing. A reroofing inspection done after the job is completed won't show anything except for shingles being applied over too many old layers.
 
Reroofing inspections are only useful if they are done when the old roof is removed
While there's plenty to see with the shingles removed there a few things to note at a final inspection.
Are closed valleys cut from the correct side?
Is flashing in serviceable condition?
Is the underlayment over the drip edge at the eaves and under at the rakes?
Do the shingles extend past the drip edge?
Are there exposed fasteners?
Do the shingles have the correct reveal?
What about attic ventilation?
 
I agree with you, and I'm glad it's not an issue in my area. My only point was that the code gives the BO the authority to render interpretations and set policies. A BO is fully within their rights to make a determination like that for their jurisdiction. We may not agree with it, but there's a lot going on out there that I don't agree with.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "interpretation" is. I know the state attorney attached to our state building inspector's office a number of years ago stated that an AHJ cannot "interpret" the code to mean something different from the plain language of the code. So if the code says a permit IS required for all repair work, and reroofing is NOT specifically listed under exemptions, an AHJ cannot (legally) "interpret" the code to say that he doesn't feel like dealing with reroofing.
 
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