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Manufacturing of alcholhol based fuels

B

Big Mac

Gold Member
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Oct 22, 2009
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563
We have a client proposing to start a methanol type operation so he can manufacture fuel for his own use.

1st Question) Is it possible to distill an 85% fuel product from the inception, or does it require the production of a pure alchohol product which is then mixed with gasoline to produce the desired 85%?

2nd Question) What type of product would you have Class IA or Class IB?

3rd Question) Can the distilling take place in the open air or should it be housed in some type of structure?

4th Question) What constitutes an acceptable amount to have in one control area?

5th Question) Should this operation even be conducted in a family neighborhood?

Please don't strike a match.
 
Let me know how he makes out!.......I probably don't have the means, but always wondered how it would work.....25% more HP and it burns cleaner..... :)
 
It's certainly not possible to distill the 85% product from the start. This is because the two products that come together to form the final product are derived from different sources. The gasoline portion is obviously a petroleum distillate while the alcohol portion is based on the fermentation of plant materials (usually corn). These 2 products are then combined can the proper ratio to form the finished product.

In order to answer the other questions completely we need to know if they will be actually manufactured both products on site (I doubt it), manufacturing the alcohol on site, or manufacturing the alcohol and combining it with gasoline on site. The scenarios and hazards very based on the operations present.
 
Big Mac said:
We have a client proposing to start a methanol type operation so he can manufacture fuel for his own use.1st Question) Is it possible to distill an 85% fuel product from the inception, or does it require the production of a pure alchohol product which is then mixed with gasoline to produce the desired 85%?

2nd Question) What type of product would you have Class IA or Class IB?

3rd Question) Can the distilling take place in the open air or should it be housed in some type of structure?

4th Question) What constitutes an acceptable amount to have in one control area?

5th Question) Should this operation even be conducted in a family neighborhood?

Please don't strike a match.
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It appears to be a simple process of fermentation and distillation of corn and when gasoline in a ratio of 2-15% is added is when it becomes combustible. I would imagine It would be classified 1C with a flash point of 12.8 C or 55 degrees F and a boiling point of 78.5 C or 173F.
 
Methanol and gasoline can both be Class IB. Based on Table 2703.1.1(1) that would permit 120gal for storage and closed use, and 30gal in open use.

Similar to the discussion surrounding "commercial cooking appliances" used in SFR, where 602.1 defines them as Appliances used in a commercial food serice establishment...; 3402.1 limits the applicability of 3406.7 by defining a "refinery" as A plant in which flammable or combustible liquids are produced on a commercial scale... Therefore, it would not appear to be regulated by the IFC.

Gregg Harris said:
a flash point of 12.8 C or 55 degrees F and a boiling point of 78.5 C or 173F.
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FP<73 F and BP>100 F is Class IB. (3402.1)
 
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steveray said:
Let me know how he makes out!.......I probably don't have the means, but always wondered how it would work.....25% more HP and it burns cleaner..... :)
Click to expand...
Burns cleaner but with less HP and 15 % less milage. One gallon of gasoline contains 114.100 btus and E85 is 81,800 btu
 
AegisFPE said:
Methanol and gasoline can both be Class IB. Based on Table 2703.1.1(1) that would permit 120gal for storage and closed use, and 30gal in open use.Similar to the discussion surrounding "commercial cooking appliances" used in SFR, where 602.1 defines them as Appliances used in a commercial food serice establishment...; 3402.1 limits the applicability of 3406.7 by defining a "refinery" as A plant in which flammable or combustible liquids are produced on a commercial scale... Therefore, it would not appear to be regulated by the IFC.

FP<73 F and BP<100 F is Class IB. (3402.1)
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My bad I read one as F and One at C I originally thought 1B then questioned myself
 
Hold on, you'll go blind if you drink methanol... wood alcohol.

Ethanol, grain alcohol is what is fermented and distilled. It is taken up to 200 proof, pure, and then mixed with 90% gasoline. E85 is 85% petrol. Unless it is on a large scale you will go broke trying to use moonshine for auto fuel, it takes a lot of work and energy, you will burn more in production from a typical still than the fuel value produced. The only way it works nationally is that we are really playing a shell game and paying for it through our taxes. A solar still has potential.

There are ATF hurdles for ethanol that have rankled the locals since Washington's time.

The origin of proof; 100 proof, 50% alcohol by volume (abv), or higher, when mixed with black powder will still allow the powder to burn. This was the proof required if you wanted to supply whiskey to HMS. Thus to the royal navy the sailors rations, which were stored in the magazine under lock and key, would not render the powder useless if there was a leak.

Using grain to produce fuel drove up world grain prices. Grain prices spiked, the arab spring was the result. Grain is for food and drink. We will be paying dearly for this policy in the next year when this poor crop gets haggled over after the federally mandated fuel quantity is removed from the decreased quantity of corn.
 
DRP said:
Hold on, you'll go blind if you drink methanol... wood alcohol.Ethanol, grain alcohol is what is fermented and distilled. It is taken up to 200 proof, pure, and then mixed with 90% gasoline. E85 is 85% petrol. Unless it is on a large scale you will go broke trying to use moonshine for auto fuel, it takes a lot of work and energy, you will burn more in production from a typical still than the fuel value produced. The only way it works nationally is that we are really playing a shell game and paying for it through our taxes. A solar still has potential.

There are ATF hurdles for ethanol that have rankled the locals since Washington's time.

The origin of proof; 100 proof, 50% alcohol by volume (abv), or higher, when mixed with black powder will still allow the powder to burn. This was the proof required if you wanted to supply whiskey to HMS. Thus to the royal navy the sailors rations, which were stored in the magazine under lock and key, would not render the powder useless if there was a leak.

Using grain to produce fuel drove up world grain prices. Grain prices spiked, the arab spring was the result. Grain is for food and drink. We will be paying dearly for this policy in the next year when this poor crop gets haggled over after the federally mandated fuel quantity is removed from the decreased quantity of corn.
Click to expand...
I think your constituents are reversed; E85 is 85 % Ethanol and 15 % petroleum.

The fuel that you purchase at a standard gas station in most cases is 90% petroleum and 10 % Ethenol
 
Just a quick update, gals and guys. It looks like the Fire Marshal is going to allow this to go forward.
 
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