1028.1, Exception 1....Exit Discharge Lobby

[Brainhurts]

Hi Folks, I'm going crazy.
Exception 1 of 1028.1 is referred to in the code commentary as an "Exit Discharge Lobby". The exception allows "re-entry" to the building from an exit stairway into an interior lobby that contains an exit discharge egress path to the exterior. 1028.1 without exceptions, would require the exit stairway to exit "directly" to the exterior. All said:

If I am allowed to have an INTERIOR exit discharge lobby at grade (per the code commentary), why would I not be allowed to have an EXTERIOR exit discharge lobby? Functionally, my exterior discharge lobby would be the same, I have a ceiling/building overhead, walls around the "lobby" except for two open sides, would be sprinklered, I have other doors that enter into the space as well, but instead of a door that leads to the public way, it would just open directly onto the public way without a door.

I could certainly enclose my non-rated exterior exit discharge lobby, but does that make it less hazardous?

 

[steveray]

I don't see why that wouldn't work....You are either "outside" and therefore safe...Or you are inside and you can get the gimmie and be "safe"

 

[classicT]

Which code and edition are you using? You've called out 1028.1, Exception #1... however, this is what I see as current CA code. Did you intent 102.8.2, Exception #1?

1028.1 General​

The exit discharge shall comply with Sections 1028 and 1029 and the applicable requirements of Sections 1003 through 1015.

1028.2 Exit Discharge​

Exits shall discharge directly to the exterior of the building. The exit discharge shall be at grade or shall provide a direct path of egress travel to grade. The exit discharge shall not reenter a building. The combined use of Exceptions 1 and 2 shall not exceed 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of the required exits.
Exceptions:

1. Not more than 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of interior exit stairways and ramps is permitted to egress through areas, including atriums, on the level of discharge provided that all of the following conditions are met:
   
   1. Discharge of interior exit stairways and ramps shall be provided with a free and unobstructed path of travel to an exterior exit door and such exit is readily visible and identifiable from the point of termination of the enclosure.
   2. The entire area of the level of exit discharge is separated from areas below by construction conforming to the fire-resistance rating for the enclosure.
   3. The egress path from the interior exit stairway and ramp on the level of exit discharge is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system. Portions of the level of exit discharge with access to the egress path shall be either equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, or separated from the egress path in accordance with the requirements for the enclosure of interior exit stairways or ramps.
   4. Where a required interior exit stairway or ramp and an exit access stairway or ramp serve the same floor level and terminate at the same level of exit discharge, the termination of the exit access stairway or ramp and the exit discharge door of the interior exit stairway or ramp shall be separated by a distance of not less than 30 feet (9144 mm) or not less than one-fourth the length of the maximum overall diagonal dimension of the building, whichever is less. The distance shall be measured in a straight line between the exit discharge door from the interior exit stairway or ramp and the last tread of the exit access stairway or termination of slope of the exit access ramp.
2. Not more than 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of the interior exit stairways and ramps is permitted to egress through a vestibule provided that all of the following conditions are met:
   
   1. The entire area of the vestibule is separated from areas below by construction conforming to the fire-resistance rating of the interior exit stairway or ramp enclosure.
   2. The depth from the exterior of the building is not greater than 10 feet (3048 mm) and the length is not greater than 30 feet (9144 mm).
   3. The area is separated from the remainder of the level of exit discharge by a fire partition constructed in accordance with Section 708.
      Exception: The maximum transmitted temperature rise is not required.
   4. The area is used only for means of egress and exits directly to the outside.
3. Horizontal exits complying with Section 1026 shall not be required to discharge directly to the exterior of the building.

 

[Noob]

Sorry for the confusion - not in CA anymore, using plain old IBC 2018 - which appears to be unchanged from 1028.2 exception 1, 1 thru 4 as you show above. Will change profile location.

 

[classicT]

Sorry for the confusion - not in CA anymore, using plain old IBC 2018 - which appears to be unchanged from 1028.2 exception 1, 1 thru 4 as you show above. Will change profile location.

Got it... sorry, but so many on here do not include information regarding the code they are using so I tend to look at their location for a hint.

Here is the section you indicated as written in the unamended 2018 IBC.

2018 IBC 1028.1 General​

Exits shall discharge directly to the exterior of the building. The exit discharge shall be at grade or shall provide a direct path of egress travel to grade. The exit discharge shall not reenter a building. The combined use of Exceptions 1 and 2 shall not exceed 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of the required exits.
Exceptions:

1. Not more than 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of interior exit stairways and ramps is permitted to egress through areas on the level of discharge provided that all of the following conditions are met:
   
   1. Discharge of interior exit stairways and ramps shall be provided with a free and unobstructed path of travel to an exterior exit door and such exit is readily visible and identifiable from the point of termination of the enclosure.
   2. The entire area of the level of exit discharge is separated from areas below by construction conforming to the fire-resistance rating for the enclosure.
   3. The egress path from the interior exit stairway and ramp on the level of exit discharge is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system. Portions of the level of exit discharge with access to the egress path shall be either equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, or separated from the egress path in accordance with the requirements for the enclosure of interior exit stairways or ramps.
   4. Where a required interior exit stairway or ramp and an exit access stairway or ramp serve the same floor level and terminate at the same level of exit discharge, the termination of the exit access stairway or ramp and the exit discharge door of the interior exit stairway or ramp shall be separated by a distance of not less than 30 feet (9144 mm) or not less than one-fourth the length of the maximum overall diagonal dimension of the building, whichever is less. The distance shall be measured in a straight line between the exit discharge door from the interior exit stairway or ramp and the last tread of the exit access stairway or termination of slope of the exit access ramp.
2. Not more than 50 percent of the number and minimum width or required capacity of the interior exit stairways and ramps is permitted to egress through a vestibule provided that all of the following conditions are met:
   
   1. The entire area of the vestibule is separated from areas below by construction conforming to the fire-resistance rating of the interior exit stairway or ramp enclosure.
   2. The depth from the exterior of the building is not greater than 10 feet (3048 mm) and the length is not greater than 30 feet (9144 mm).
   3. The area is separated from the remainder of the level of exit discharge by a fire partition constructed in accordance with Section 708.
      Exception: The maximum transmitted temperature rise is not required.
   4. The area is used only for means of egress and exits directly to the outside.
3. Horizontal exits complying with Section 1026 shall not be required to discharge directly to the exterior of the building.

Given...

I have a ceiling/building overhead, walls around the "lobby" except for two open sides, would be sprinklered, I have other doors that enter into the space as well, but instead of a door that leads to the public way, it would just open directly onto the public way without a door.

... it is my opinion that the Exceptions from 1028.1 need not be applied. Given your statement, I believe that you have an exit that discharges directly to the exterior of the building. Yes, the area is covered and is enclosed on two sides by exterior walls, but you are outside the building. If you agree to that principal, then you would approach this like an egress court (1028.4).

I would make note of 1028.3 as well.

1028.3 Exit Discharge Components​

Exit discharge components shall be sufficiently open to the exterior so as to minimize the accumulation of smoke and toxic gases.

 

[classicT]

You may want to check out this thread as well.

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/canopy-at-exit.28440/

 

[Noob]

I can't meet the definition of egress court being "open to sky". The second floor of the building is overhead - this is a sort of breezeway through the first floor that connects to the public way. I think this is a good recognition from RGLA though that your exit discharge "be sufficiently open to the exterior as to minimize the accumulation of smoke and toxic gases" (IBC 1028.3) - that's the major hazard of being "interior" in a fire. Weirdly enough, I'd say that directly conflicts with having an exception for an interior exit discharge lobby, but it's an exception.

classicT - I agree with that logic, once you are exterior you are "exterior", but there's no definition given in the IBC for it. AHJ is looking at the definition of "Building Area" - which includes exterior areas that have buildings overhead - what caused me to dig a bit deeper.

 

[classicT]

I can't meet the definition of egress court being "open to sky". The second floor of the building is overhead - this is a sort of breezeway through the first floor that connects to the public way. I think this is a good recognition from RGLA though that your exit discharge "be sufficiently open to the exterior as to minimize the accumulation of smoke and toxic gases" (IBC 1028.3) - that's the major hazard of being "interior" in a fire. Weirdly enough, I'd say that directly conflicts with having an exception for an interior exit discharge lobby, but it's an exception.

classicT - I agree with that logic, once you are exterior you are "exterior", but there's no definition given in the IBC for it. AHJ is looking at the definition of "Building Area" - which includes exterior areas that have buildings overhead - what caused me to dig a bit deeper.

I remember Ron making that point, which comes from the definitions for a court or yard.

[BE] EGRESS COURT. A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
[BG] COURT. An open, uncovered space, unobstructed to the sky, bounded on three or more sides by exterior building walls or other enclosing devices.
[BG] YARD. An open space, other than a court, unobstructed from the ground to the sky, except where specifically provided by this code, on the lot on which a building is situated.