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Accessible bar seating....

steveray

steveray

SAWHORSE
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
11,751
Location
West of the river CT
New bar in an old Friendly's restaurant.....IBC 1109.12...or 1108.2.9 or ADA..........If they put in a new bar, do they have to have a wheelchair accessible spot at it and which piece requires it? I believe they do, but just want to be sure...as I do not recall ever seeing one....

Thanx!
 
Dining Areas need to provide an accessible route to and thru them:

IBC 2009; 1108.2.9 Dining areas. In dining areas, the total floor area allotted for seating and tables shall be accessible.

And 5%, or at least 1 of the dining tables, or standing table shall be accessible



IBC 2009; 1108.2.9.1 Dining surfaces. Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the dining surfaces for the seating and standing spaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility and located on a level accessed by an accessible route.

In my jurisdiction, we have determined that if accessible seating is provided within the space or room where the bar is located, then that would suffice for accessible seating in the space or room.

We do ask though, if the bar is to be used for walk up ordering or payment or take-out services (6 packs, to-go orders). If so then an accessible customer service counter
 
See Section 1109.12.3 in the 2006 IBC. Accessible counter required for any new

service counters, which means an Accessible route is also required!

.
 
steveray said:
New bar in an old Friendly's restaurant.....IBC 1109.12...or 1108.2.9 or ADA...
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I assume you looking for references in the IBC, or ADAAG, and not the ADA?

2006 IBC, Section 1109.11. Seating at tables, counters and work surfaces.

"...at least 5%, but not less than one, shall be accessible."

1109.11.1 Dispersion.
 
Jim B said:
In my jurisdiction, we have determined that if accessible seating is provided within the space or room where the bar is located, then that would suffice for accessible seating in the space or room.We do ask though, if the bar is to be used for walk up ordering or payment or take-out services (6 packs, to-go orders). If so then an accessible customer service counter
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The DOJ didn't like that same determination/response much from the owner's/operators of a new baseball stadium here, especially in regards to the out-field bar. There is now a lowered section so someone in a wheel chair can also sit at the bar and view the game. I have been told that access to vistas is an important part of the ADA, and should be reflected in the March 15th, 2012 adoption of the 2010 ADAAG and future accessibility standards. 2009 ICC A117.1 may already cover some of those issues.
 
1108.2.9.1 Dining surfaces.

Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the seating and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility.

It's the "not less than one...at the dining surfaces..." that gets me...seems to lean toward that with the other requirements for dispersion...trying to get a feel if it is addressed in ADA any clearer, or at least a straw poll of how it is being handled in other areas. We have alot of chain restaraunts in this area and don't recall having seen them at their bars, and I would hope that some of those national accounts woulde be up on those things.....
 
steveray said:
...trying to get a feel if it is addressed in ADA any clearer, or at least a straw poll of how it is being handled in other areas. We have alot of chain restaraunts in this area and don't recall having seen them at their bars, and I would hope that some of those national accounts woulde be up on those things.....
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Based upon our interpretation of the sections cited in my previous post, we require, at a minimum, one lowered section for every twenty seats shown at a bar (5%). When there are more than twenty spots, we do not permit accessible surfaces to be combined/lumped together at one end or the other of the bar/counter space. We also require them to provide front and side approach knee clearance.

In my experience, national restaurant chains receive the most non-compliant comments during plan review, and usually, but not always, challenge the comments with statements such as, "we have never had to do this in other jurisdictions." Rarely are the RDPs of record familiar with Chapter 11, let alone ANSI A117.1.
 
Believe it or not, there are those people that have rouble sitting. If there are no spaces provided at the bar for them, where do they go. Also, if there are no accessible spaces at the bar, you could be depriving them of the ability to converse with fmaily, freinds or co-workers that prefer a bar location. Equal access, etc.
 
Thanks Papio!.....that is pretty much my take and what I had passed on to the owner....no permit yet, just trying to give him the best heads up I can on commonly missed issues...I just try to check myself here to make sure I am not being over the top when it is something that blows someone away when I bring it up...and I don't see it done a whole lot....I figure if I am being rediculously heavy handed, Brudgers will smack me down!.... :)
 
Dang it, i hate not having spell check. Of course grammer check would be good too. That should read trouble standing / and family
 
steveray said:
Thanks Papio!.....that is pretty much my take and what I had passed on to the owner....no permit yet, just trying to give him the best heads up I can on commonly missed issues...I just try to check myself here to make sure I am not being over the top when it is something that blows someone away when I bring it up...and I don't see it done a whole lot....I figure if I am being rediculously heavy handed, Brudgers will smack me down!.... :)
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Every once in awhile I need a good smack down...I have a feeling I am overdue.
 
steveray said:
Thanks Papio!.....that is pretty much my take and what I had passed on to the owner....no permit yet, just trying to give him the best heads up I can on commonly missed issues...I just try to check myself here to make sure I am not being over the top when it is something that blows someone away when I bring it up...and I don't see it done a whole lot....I figure if I am being rediculously heavy handed, Brudgers will smack me down!.... :)
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brudgers likes it when ADA compliance is met or exceeded, he only brings on the smack down when you don't slide down his slippery chute of of "commonsense" code enforcement, when you're an architect and know less than him, or when your a plans examiner and think you know more than him.
 
gbhammer said:
...when you're an architect and know less than him, or when your a plans examiner and think you know more than him.
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Careful, inductive reasoning could be perceived as a fallacious argument and you may be cited.
 
I spoke with the ICC Accessibility expert… she stated that if a room or space has a bar with seating and also provides table seating, the accessible seating may be provided at the tables.

If the room or space only provides seating at a bar, then the accessible seating shall be provided at the bar.
 
Jim B said:
I spoke with the ICC Accessibility expert… she stated that if a room or space has a bar with seating and also provides table seating, the accessible seating may be provided at the tables.If the room or space only provides seating at a bar, then the accessible seating shall be provided at the bar.
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I would contact the DOJ to verify that the unique circumstances of the facility would be considered to offer equivalent facilitation.

This was a common approach, however, from my contact with the DOJ, this does not meet their current direction for intent of equivalent facilitation. It is still my understanding that 5% of the seating shall be accessible and shall be equally dispersed to various areas of seating within the establishment. I understand this to include the bar area as a separate seating area from table seating. Each design is different, and should be carefully considered.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
I would contact the DOJ to verify that the unique circumstances of the facility would be considered to offer equivalent facilitation. This was a common approach, however, from my contact with the DOJ, this does not meet their current direction for intent of equivalent facilitation. It is still my understanding that 5% of the seating shall be accessible and shall be equally dispersed to various areas of seating within the establishment. I understand this to include the bar area as a separate seating area from table seating. Each design is different, and should be carefully considered.
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Papio is correct,

The ADA accessibility standard requires wheelchair seating to be dispersed throughout the seating area

But, the DOJ has posted, if this is an alteration, table seats in the same area, maybe used, but not for new construction.
 
Thanks Mark!....new "bar" in an alteration to existing building (no change of use)......can you direct me to that part of the ADA? if I can print it out and show the owner, it may alleviate the issues I have, and alleviate any future issues...!
 
There are several technical papers and interps written I will see if I can find later, got to go right now

http://www.ada.gov/adastd94.pdf

5.2 Counters and Bars. Where food or drink is served at counters exceeding 34 inches in height for consumption by customers seated on stools or standing at the counter, a portion of the main counter which is 60 inches in length minimum shall be provided in compliance with 4.32 or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area.

5.4 Dining Areas. In new construction, all dining areas, including raised or sunken dining areas, loggias, and outdoor seating areas, shall be accessible. In non-elevator buildings, an accessible means of vertical access to the mezzanine is not required under the following conditions: 1) the area of mezzanine seating measures no more than 33 percent of the area of the total accessible seating area; 2) the same services and decor are provided in an accessible space usable by the general public; and, 3) the accessible areas are not restricted to use by people with disabilities. In alterations, accessibility to raised or sunken dining areas, or to all parts of outdoor seating areas is not required provided that the same services and decor are provided in an accessible space usable by the general public and are not restricted to use by people with disabilities.
 
http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm

Serving Counters

Where food or drinks are served at counters and the counter height is more than 34 inches above the floor, providing a lowered section of the serving counter at least 60 inches long and no higher than 34 inches will make the counter accessible. If it is not readily achievable to make the counter accessible, a business can serve the items at nearby accessible tables, if readily achievable.

When it is not readily achievable to provide an accessible counter or bar area or service at accessible tables in the same area, then a business should provide service in an alternative manner, if doing so is readily achievable. This may include offering to assist the customer by moving items to an accessible counter or to their table in another area.

DOJ has defined New construction as readily achievable.
 
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