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Architect recinds seal before permit is issued
- Thread starter barlovian
- Start date
mark handler
SAWHORSE
ARCHITECT OWNS THE DRAWINGS.
Put the permit on hold until the owner provides new drawings.
http://www.inspectpa.com/phpbb/showthread.php?2395-Copyright-in-Architectural-Works-What-You-Need-to-Know
Put the permit on hold until the owner provides new drawings.
http://www.inspectpa.com/phpbb/showthread.php?2395-Copyright-in-Architectural-Works-What-You-Need-to-Know
Generally, unless the architect's letter cites a public safety issue in the documents themselves, I cannot see good cause not to issue the permit.barlovian said:
You are not responsible for enforcing a private contract, and most likely this is a private pay dispute.
And the drawings are filed as a matter of public record.
However, laws vary.
Talk to the city attorney.
Talk to your state board of architecture.
Either course of action may make you liable.
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conarb
Registered User
I agree with Brudgers, the architect can't take back his signed documents, but he could issue a signed letter asking to modify his documents asking you to place it in the file, you are not part of the civil court system enforcing his private rights. If the architect is having some kind of problem he should retain an attorney.
The issues of ownership of drawings or contractual obligations are not relevant to the building official.
If the Architect has rescinded his seal or resigned as Architect of Record the drawings effectively have not been stamped and signed. Thus when the building code (IBC Section 107.1) requires that the drawings be prepared by a registered design professional and there is no state exemption, the submission for permit is in conflict with the code.
See also IBC Section 107.3.4 which allows the building official to require that there be a designated Design Professional in Responsible Charge. If it is your normal policy to impose this requirement then you would find the submission not to be in compliance.
Irregardless of the building code if the state licensing laws requires that the work be performed by a registered architect then the documents are not in compliance the building official can reject them.
If the Architect has rescinded his seal or resigned as Architect of Record the drawings effectively have not been stamped and signed. Thus when the building code (IBC Section 107.1) requires that the drawings be prepared by a registered design professional and there is no state exemption, the submission for permit is in conflict with the code.
See also IBC Section 107.3.4 which allows the building official to require that there be a designated Design Professional in Responsible Charge. If it is your normal policy to impose this requirement then you would find the submission not to be in compliance.
Irregardless of the building code if the state licensing laws requires that the work be performed by a registered architect then the documents are not in compliance the building official can reject them.
MarkRandall
Silver Member
Once those drawings are stamped and submitted, I don't see how the jurisdiction can rescind those documents and not allow them to be reviewed and approved for construction. I am an Architect and have been lucky to be paid for my work (most of the time. I have had a deadbeat client or two that has stiffed me). If the architect has any issues with a set of drawings, he should not have signed them to start with. Once signed, they are signed (unless you find somewhere in the licensing laws that allows for an architect to rescind his stamp).
I can relate this to any legal contract between two or more parties. If the contract was signed by required parties, You can't send in a letter later on saying "I didn't really mean to sign the contract". Whatever the dispute is, it's now up to the parties involved to resolve them through whatever legal means (arbitration, mediation, courts), not the building department.
Just read Min&max reply: If there are corrections to be made, the architect can refuse to resubmit corrections until the dispute is solved.
I can relate this to any legal contract between two or more parties. If the contract was signed by required parties, You can't send in a letter later on saying "I didn't really mean to sign the contract". Whatever the dispute is, it's now up to the parties involved to resolve them through whatever legal means (arbitration, mediation, courts), not the building department.
Just read Min&max reply: If there are corrections to be made, the architect can refuse to resubmit corrections until the dispute is solved.
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So far as I am aware of the architect registration laws of the various states, and I am pretty damn aware of them, I've never seen any law or rule allowing an architect to "rescind" their seal from a set of plans.Mark K said:
There are some states, such as Alabama which require an architect to provide construction phase services and when such services are not provided the architect must notify the board and the building official...this would be an example of resigning from a project. But that doesn't change the status of the submitted plans.
I've also seen architects with POA allowing them to withdraw plans "on behalf of the applicant." But there's always a document signed by the applicant.
Was there a specific state law you were considering?
The stamp and signature indicates that the documents conform to the code requirements. If the Architect is aware that they do no conform to the code requirements, thus putting the public at risk, he has a legal obligation to take steps either to correct the defect or to disassociate himself from the flawed documents.
Unless you know that the reason for withdrawing the architects seal is financial you have to assume that it might be related to defects in the documents.
I will agree that after the building is constructed the architect cannot withdraw his seal. But we are talking about a situation where the permit has been issued. In such situations it is essential that the architect has the right to withdraw his seal to protect future harm. To take a contrary position does not make sense.
I had a situation where I became aware that the Owner and the Contractor were conspiring to build the house in conflict with the drawings I prepared. I pointed out the issue but they were not interested in working with me to resolve the problems. In this situation I resigned as engineer of record and noted that I did so because the permit documents were not being followed..
You also have problems where the architect has duties during construction in the building code (Ref Section 107.3.4, 1704.1.2, and 1710). These duties cannot be performed unless there is an architect/design professional associated with the project.
It wasn't stated whether the plan check had been completed and all of the comments resolved or not but if there is a plan check comment that requires modification to the permit documents those changes cannot occur if the architect is not in a position to respond to the comments. If this is the case you cannot issue a permit until the architect recants his retraction or the owner finds another design professional to take over the project.
Unless you know that the reason for withdrawing the architects seal is financial you have to assume that it might be related to defects in the documents.
I will agree that after the building is constructed the architect cannot withdraw his seal. But we are talking about a situation where the permit has been issued. In such situations it is essential that the architect has the right to withdraw his seal to protect future harm. To take a contrary position does not make sense.
I had a situation where I became aware that the Owner and the Contractor were conspiring to build the house in conflict with the drawings I prepared. I pointed out the issue but they were not interested in working with me to resolve the problems. In this situation I resigned as engineer of record and noted that I did so because the permit documents were not being followed..
You also have problems where the architect has duties during construction in the building code (Ref Section 107.3.4, 1704.1.2, and 1710). These duties cannot be performed unless there is an architect/design professional associated with the project.
It wasn't stated whether the plan check had been completed and all of the comments resolved or not but if there is a plan check comment that requires modification to the permit documents those changes cannot occur if the architect is not in a position to respond to the comments. If this is the case you cannot issue a permit until the architect recants his retraction or the owner finds another design professional to take over the project.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
texas transplant
Silver Member
As a building official, my next stop is the City Attorney's office. A building official has to enforce the architectural and engineering professional regulations for the state they are in (as far as my state goes we have to enforce when a seal is required, we are suppose to turn in unlicensed persons trying to pass them selves off as RDP, etc.). The questions about when a set of plans need a seal etc. are easy because you deal with it each and every day you are open for business. This is an unusual question and the answer is not going to found in the FAQ section of the state website or easy to pick out of the statutes. So use the guy that gets paid so much for legal advice. Make sure you are on the right side of this.barlovian said:
Barlovian, if you would add what state you are in to your profile it will make it easier to answer your questions or keep people from giving you a California answer to a New York problem. The answers aren't always the same. Did the letter rescinding the seal, give any reasons, or just that the seal was rescinded?
JBI
Registered User
Seek advice of counsel.
conarb
Registered User
To make a point I am going to create an extreme hypothetical:
An architect has a heart attack, he goes to a heart surgeon who does a procedure and bills the architect $100,000, the architect doesn't pay the bill. Ten years go by, the heart surgeon hires the architect to design him a home, the architect does so and bills the heart surgeon $50,000, the heart surgeon refuses to pay, the architect writes a letter to you rescinding his seal. JFYI in California (anyway, and probably mores states) even if the statute of limitations has expired obligations can still be legally offset.
Do you really want to get involved in the middle of this legal mess? Don't get involved in aiding and abetting an architect trying to coerce payment from a client. In fact, the architect could be using the building department to extort money from the surgeon, extortion is a crime and you could be aiding and abetting a criminal act.
An architect has a heart attack, he goes to a heart surgeon who does a procedure and bills the architect $100,000, the architect doesn't pay the bill. Ten years go by, the heart surgeon hires the architect to design him a home, the architect does so and bills the heart surgeon $50,000, the heart surgeon refuses to pay, the architect writes a letter to you rescinding his seal. JFYI in California (anyway, and probably mores states) even if the statute of limitations has expired obligations can still be legally offset.
Do you really want to get involved in the middle of this legal mess? Don't get involved in aiding and abetting an architect trying to coerce payment from a client. In fact, the architect could be using the building department to extort money from the surgeon, extortion is a crime and you could be aiding and abetting a criminal act.
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Thank you for all of the great insights. I posed the question to this bb after a local designer asked me what a code official would do in that situation. All code officials think alike—right??
I am in Maryland, where all but Chapters One and Eleven of IBC are adopted. LDP in responsible charge does not apply unless it is added back in at the local level. If we had Chapter One, it would help in this instance, as would any requirements for revised drawings or special inspections or other submittals.
After reading through the bb responses and the link to the old bb, I learned that control over use of the drawings is an item that the LDP should address in the agreement for professional services. In addition to unauthorized use at a different site, what happens if the builder does not follow all of the drawings, or if project administration services that were assumed are later cut, or if the developer goes broke and the bank takes over the project, etc.
I did call the state licensing board to ask if they had any guidance. There was no readily available policy guidance and they offered to forward a written inquiry to their legal staff for review. I guess I must be pessimistic today as I don’t intend to write to the state board for an interpretation that will be ignored. The state board has jurisdiction over licensed design professionals but no penalties to require compliance from local jurisdictions.
I am in Maryland, where all but Chapters One and Eleven of IBC are adopted. LDP in responsible charge does not apply unless it is added back in at the local level. If we had Chapter One, it would help in this instance, as would any requirements for revised drawings or special inspections or other submittals.
After reading through the bb responses and the link to the old bb, I learned that control over use of the drawings is an item that the LDP should address in the agreement for professional services. In addition to unauthorized use at a different site, what happens if the builder does not follow all of the drawings, or if project administration services that were assumed are later cut, or if the developer goes broke and the bank takes over the project, etc.
I did call the state licensing board to ask if they had any guidance. There was no readily available policy guidance and they offered to forward a written inquiry to their legal staff for review. I guess I must be pessimistic today as I don’t intend to write to the state board for an interpretation that will be ignored. The state board has jurisdiction over licensed design professionals but no penalties to require compliance from local jurisdictions.