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Backfill required to be gravel all the way up? or just around the footer

D

Dropstone

Registered User
Joined
Sep 2, 2020
Messages
44
Location
Marietta Ohio
Is the backfill required to be all the way up with free draining backfill material by code? I cannot find anything in IRC that says it. Before I ask my builder to dig up 6 feet of a 12 foot wall and fill it back with gravel as Ive see every other place being built like that here in ohio, I need a reference. Thank you.
 
Presume that you are talking about a basement wall, given were are talking a 12-ft wall. Typically, unless you have well drained soils, some type of foundation drain will be installed. Given the height of this wall (12-ft), was it engineered? The IRC only goes up to 10-ft tall basement walls. If engineered, should have a detail from the engineer, which would specify the requirements for backfill.

R405.1 Concrete or Masonry Foundations
Drains shall be provided around concrete or masonry foundations that retain earth and enclose habitable or usable spaces located below grade. Drainage tiles, gravel or crushed stone drains, perforated pipe or other approved systems or materials shall be installed at or below the area to be protected and shall discharge by gravity or mechanical means into an approved drainage system. Gravel or crushed stone drains shall extend not less than 1 foot (305 mm) beyond the outside edge of the footing and 6 inches (152 mm) above the top of the footing and be covered with an approved filter membrane material. The top of open joints of drain tiles shall be protected with strips of building paper. Except where otherwise recommended by the drain manufacturer, perforated drains shall be surrounded with an approved filter membrane or the filter membrane shall cover the washed gravel or crushed rock covering the drain. Drainage tiles or perforated pipe shall be placed on a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) of washed gravel or crushed rock not less than one sieve size larger than the tile joint opening or perforation and covered with not less than 6 inches (152 mm) of the same material.

Exception: A drainage system is not required where the foundation is installed on well-drained ground or sand-gravel mixture soils according to the Unified Soil Classification System, Group I soils, as detailed in Table R405.1.
 
12’ walls poured concrete. Basically my builder says that codes don’t apply to this building since there is no code enforcement and therefore he can build whatever he wants and however he wants. I told him Ohio adopted the IRC like a decade ago and since he live in Ohio, it applies. He shrugs it off. Super fun. Anyways the soil is red clay and doesn’t drain. It goes from sloppy clay to bricks and back to sloppy clay. Tons of bussiness here that love to fix basements becuase the soil slides or shifts, I forget how they say it but buildings sink or slide down a hill. Brand new construction and we have water infiltration from a crack from cement drying. I told him it wouldn’t leak had he put gravel all the way up the wall like everyone does here. He also left a look out basement footer at 10” deep and the frost line is 20” here. I don’t know how tell him with authority that he’s liable to build in code. I’m just a guy reading a code book. I have no qualifications. He’s also built the wall so the sill plate below the garage is 2’ under grade. It leaks there too. They forgot to step the foundation so that those structural members are behind concrete. So he flashed it and moved on instead of correcting. He didn’t build from plans or use an engineer. In my area permits aren’t required except for the leach field.
 
Sorry, I meant water leaked in because he didn’t put gravel all the alway up and he didn’t grade away the water 10’ with 6” drop. He slopes it straight into the walls. So I said, water would have never reached the wall had it had gravel all the way up.
 
Just having a layer of gravel isn’t going to prevent the basement wall from leaking, the wall needs a waterproofing layer.
The biggest thing in your favor is going to be the contract and the plans. Is he building whats on the plans?
 
Dropstone said:
12’ walls poured concrete. Basically my builder says that codes don’t apply to this building since there is no code enforcement and therefore he can build whatever he wants and however he wants. I told him Ohio adopted the IRC like a decade ago and since he live in Ohio, it applies. He shrugs it off. Super fun.
Click to expand...

Run Forrest... Run... from this builder!

Here it's a drain tile with a sock over it, covered with 3/4" clean gravel. The wall is waterproofed and the drain tile sits on the footer prior to gravel drop. Tile are left long where open to daylight so they can be cut back where needed. If your worried about water intrusion there are products on the market that can be applied to the foundation wall like subseal 40 membrane or Certainteed planton membrane.
 
Pcinspector1 said:
Run Forrest... Run... from this builder!

Here it's a drain tile with a sock over it, covered with 3/4" clean gravel. The wall is waterproofed and the drain tile sits on the footer prior to gravel drop. Tile are left long where open to daylight so they can be cut back where needed. If your worried about water intrusion there are products on the market that can be applied to the foundation wall like subseal 40 membrane or Certainteed planton membrane.
Click to expand...
Yup. I would have a third party agency do an inspection to locate the code deficiencies and terminate the contract.
 
So many things wrong.... 12-ft basement wall with no engineering? Clay soils, no waterproofing, etc. Oh, and no permit or independent inspection.

Yeah, good luck on this one. I'd run. Far and fast.
 
Wonder if that 12-ft foundation wall has any dead-man?

Some here put a pipe in the dead-man's form before pouring so the drain tile can go through and other don't waste their time and go around the dead-man.
 
The great myth is that contractors know what should be done. Yes there are many things where a good contractor knows what to do but there are so many things where contractors believe they know what is needed but do not understand the issues. Prescriptive codes such as the IRC try to compensate and to some limited extent work. The problem is that many who use them do not understand the limitations of these prescriptive codes.

Some times the cheapest thing you can do is hire an architect or an engineer but too often the contractors that push back at that idea are the ones that need the most oversight.
 
so you have entered into a contract with this alleged contractor (are licenses required in Ohio?) and there are no permits required?
 
In my area, permits aren't required, there is no code enforcement, Ive asked the city to courtesy inspect the building and they refuse, contractors license are not required. Basically the guy bought a farm and spends his time developing the land into neighborhoods. He lives on the farm. Today he says to me that he has to follow no codes because although Ohio adopted IRC back in 2008(I think) Washington county did not adopt the IRC. Therefore he doesn't have to build to code. I told him that It doesn't matter if the county adopted the code. If he's in ohio, he's under code wether code enforcement is around to hold your hand upholding the codes or not. Im not exactly sure what to do or if I am even correct in my thinking. It just seems to me that disclosure for laws read something like, follow federal, state and local law. Which means, federal laws apply everywhere in the nation, then the state can add to them but not take away, then the county's can add to that but not take away. So far he's built everything from start to finish and just a few deficiencies Ive found are branch circuits of 20A being run to 24amps. He wired the refrigerator and the microwave not he same one. No separate branch circuit for the washing machine in laundry. No carbon monoxide alarms near the gas appliances. The newest and most devistating one is my footers on lookout basement are 10" deep and frost line in this region is 20". One portion of those footers are not heated(garage) so I dont even know what to do about that. Basically we've already purchased the house and are not operating in builders warranty. I haven't really slept past 3 am for the last 4 months since we bought this house.
 
Thanks Rogerpa. It turns out Ive dont the things outlined in those laws by just natural response to the situation but now I know correct timing and will make the whole thing neat and clear. In my life, ive given up fighting. So instead of moving like a snake in the grass, I think Ill be open and clear in my actions. I dont think the guy has ill intentions but gosh he's been a builder his entire life. Oh well. Is there any advice on finding an inspector in an area like mine? Ive tried the local engineers, local home inspectors(claim to be building CONDITION inspectors, not building code inspectors). The closest Ive come to someone qualified is a building company who's quoting guy happens to sit on the building department board for the city. Maybe I should pick a larger city and pay for travel for someone who inspects IRC and the NEC and whatever other codes apply. Im just a guy with the internet and I dont feel confident I could see things the way an actual inspector could.
 
Talk to an attorney and ask him how much it will likely cost to litigate and what is the likely outcome. Talk to the attorney about terminating your contract with the Contractor. Then find an engineer, not to act as an inspector, but to evaluate the problem and develop a fix if needed. You may find that the cheapest thing is just to fix the problem yourself. It will also be the quickest.
 
I assume you have a loan for this house? I would get the mortgage holder involved as well. This house is not worth as much as they think it is
 
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