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Batch Testing

hazmatpoobah

Bronze Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
60
I sit on our community's Building Code and Fire Code Board of Appeal. We are currently in the process of adopting the 2009 IECC.

An amendment has been brought forward by the area homebuilders association which would allow homebuilders to batch test the HVAC systems on "production" homes. Essentially the proposed rule states that if the builder has more than seven homes, they chose 15% of them to test and if all of those homes in the 15 percentile range pass, no additional testing is required.

I noted in the IECC monograph similiar code changes by some of the major US government labs and NAHB.

I'm trying to learn if their is any science to this or if its all for the sake of saving costs. I rarely venture into one- and two-family dwelling world so any assistance and opinions would be appreciated.

PS: Thanks again Jeff for creating such an awesome venue for asking questions.
 
Re: Batch Testing

Not a big fan of the builder getting to choose the batch to be tested. I would venture that it would be more appealing to me (common sense wise) to have random testing of up to 15% of the homes for compliance. The selection process would require some secrecy as to which homes ould be selected to be tested. That way, the contractors would have to use quality control on the entire project, and not just the first 15 percent.
 
Re: Batch Testing

BB,

I'm not advocating this at all, and neither are two of my fellow board members. The issue for us is that when the Board moves forward, we'll be challenged by the homebuilders in Council Chambers. I'm not worried about that - what I'm looking for is the science, i.e., why 15%, why "x" houses? It sounds pretty hokey to me and without any science or clear logic, I can't support this.
 
Re: Batch Testing

Is this to confirm a performance-based alternative? If so, I don't see why 100% of the product is not tested.

You are inspecting every house at every step of construction, I assume.
 
Re: Batch Testing

Tom,

I agree, and yes, 100% inspections. What's interesting is not only are the local home builders proposing this, but a number of changes will be heard in Baltimore on this very subject.
 
Re: Batch Testing

My opinion is this: the feds want increased energy efficiency which we all know will result in higher costs to build. The home builders want to use performance-based alternatives (voodoo science) so they can cook the books with nobody the wiser.

Just one man's opinion...
 
Re: Batch Testing

I would hate to see this become common. Crews change constantly so how would anyone know if the same people/skills/training that performed the work in the 15% which are tested did the other 85%?
 
Re: Batch Testing

hazmat, I do not have a copy of the 2009 energy code. I tried to look at the new and improved ICC web site and view the free ecodes and was not able to pull them up. However I believe that allowing this would be violating the code.

There is a standing rule somewhere out there that if you adopt a code you cannot be less restrictive than the code adopted by the state. Now with that, Texas is currently using the 2000 IECC, which does not require testing. So until the State adopts the 2009, or something to that effect, the batch testing would be legal. Upon adoption of the 2009 then I would think that the ammendment would be violating State code.

I agree with BB on who choses which ones to test. 15% of seven residential homes is 1.05. They would want to test every 7th house, because you know they are not going to have seven houses finished all at the same time. If they know which house is going to be tested I'm sure that house would be the one to purchase, knowing it is the better of the seven.

I would not be supportive of batch testing.
 
Re: Batch Testing

Test 100% of them. The job you create might be for your son inlaw :)

Seriously I agree with the others for the reasons already stated.
 
Re: Batch Testing

Mule - Try this link... http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/ I just checked it before I posted it and it still works (for me anyway, but as you already know, I'm special :lol: )

Haz - I'm definitely with the (apparent) majority on this one, test/check them all! I've always maintained that the quickest way to make a 'good' contractor a 'bad' one is to stop checking his work. :(

One of the worst problems I have in my current jurisdiction is residential HVAC. The contractors that actually have no clue are common enough to cause a problem, but the real issue here is the ones that DO know the rules, but can't be bothered doing the right thing. :shock:

Talk about a burr under your saddle! :x
 
Re: Batch Testing

with Energy Star, only a certain percentage needs to be verified. Since the verification should be a third party, it's up to them to pick the 10 or 15 or 50% of the houses to be verified... not the contractor
 
Re: Batch Testing

.

Haz,

I would challenge the homebuilders recommended 15% as well.

This sounds like a marketing campaign by the builders to sell

their houses. 100% of the houses should be checked, ...every

time for compliance, not just a few selected ones that the

builders made a special effort to actually be [ somewhat ]

compliant on.

You want science, ...well, mathematics is a science, and the

basic math here says that the remaining 85% would be suspect

at best! Try to "hold the builders feet to the fire" and

require compliance to 100% of the houses.

.
 
Re: Batch Testing

15 per cent rule:::

From the feds??? or Massachusetts???

B. Sampling Protocol Certification: Homebuilders who have demonstrated an ability to consistently meet the ENERGY STAR guidelines can select to use the ENERGY STAR for New Homes Sampling Protocol. The Sampling Protocol allows HERS Raters to randomly test and inspect a minimum of 15 percent of homes from a batch of homes typically located within the same subdivision. If one home fails, the entire sample or batch of homes needs to be tested.

The protocol minimizes production interruptions and verification costs for builders, while ensuring that homes meet or exceed the guidelines for qualifying homes as ENERGY STAR.

http://www.massenergystarhomes.com/home ... cation.htm

My first edit:::

http://www.natresnet.org/conference/200 ... /milin.PDF

http://www.kcplsave.com/business/progra ... works.aspx
 
Re: Batch Testing

cda said:
15 per cent rule:::From the feds??? or Massachusetts???

B. Sampling Protocol Certification: Homebuilders who have demonstrated an ability to consistently meet the ENERGY STAR guidelines can select to use the ENERGY STAR for New Homes Sampling Protocol. The Sampling Protocol allows HERS Raters to randomly test and inspect a minimum of 15 percent of homes from a batch of homes typically located within the same subdivision. If one home fails, the entire sample or batch of homes needs to be tested.

The protocol minimizes production interruptions and verification costs for builders, while ensuring that homes meet or exceed the guidelines for qualifying homes as ENERGY STAR.
The sentence part I highlighted in bold says it all. They have to earn that 15% by giving you 100% until such time as you determine they can be trusted.
 
Re: Batch Testing

I have to agree with peach! Third party or the inspectors. However, the problem still exists that some of the ones not tested may just be not able to pass. Next, they will want to only test 15% of the plumbing or sprinkler system. I just wonder!
 
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