California High Rise with stair risers 7.5" tall. also little elevator issue

[JPohling]

High rise building constructed in 1986. I am looking at this for a State of California tenant. The CBC will allow this as the stair enclosures cannot be made larger to add an additional tread to reduce the riser height to 7" or less. There is a mechanism for this to be allowed in the CBC. My issue is compliance with the ADA per the State of California lease requirements. It seems as if there may be an allowance for up to 3/8" of variance along the stair run, but I am at 1/2". Previously the State has issued a letter that they know of this shortfall and have accepted it in writing, but now they are trying not to do that and are looking to me for a solution that would comply with the ADA requirements 4.9.2. What can be done in this instance ?

Also there are 4 elevators in the building. Only one of which can meet the size requirement of 54" x 80" . The others (3) are at 78.5 x 55. We have signed this elevator as the accessible elevator and installed call buttons specifically for this elevator so a disabled person can use this cab specifically if needed. They are questioning if this would comply with ADA 4.1.3 requiring that "all" passenger elevators comply. Once again CBC would allow this as the elevator shafts cannot be made larger without undo hardship but I do not see where this is allowed by the ADA?

Any direction on this would be appreciated

 

[mark handler]

2010 ADASAD§36.402 Alterations.© To the maximum extent feasible. The phrase "to the maximum extent feasible," as used in this section, applies to the occasional case where the nature of an existing facility makes it virtually impossible to comply fully with applicable accessibility standards through a planned alteration. In these circumstances, the alteration shall provide the maximum physical accessibility feasible. Any altered features of the facility that can be made accessible shall be made accessible. If providing accessibility in conformance with this section to individuals with certain disabilities (e.g., those who use wheelchairs) would not be feasible, the facility shall be made accessible to persons with other types of disabilities (e.g., those who use crutches, those who have impaired vision or hearing, or those who have other impairments).

When you call the elevator, how does the "accessible elevator" know you are in a wheelchair?

What happens when the "accessible elevator" is down for service?

 

[JPohling]

Mark, After a little more research it looks as if there is an exception within ADA.... "where existing shaft configuration or technically infeasibility prohibits strict compliance with 4.10.9 the minimum plan dimensions may be reduced by the minimum amount necessary, but in no case shall the inside car area be smaller than 48" x 48"."

I am not sure what you mean by......When you call the elevator, how does the "accessible elevator" know you are in a wheelchair? There are dedicated call buttons specifically for the fully complying and signed elevator.

I do not think there is anything that can be done with the service time situation.

And I do not even see where 7" maximum riser is even specified in the ADA, they only discuss the tread depth.

 

[mark handler]

ADASAD504 Stairways

504.1 General. Stairs shall comply with 504.

504.2 Treads and Risers. All steps on a flight of stairs shall have uniform riser heights and uniform tread depths. Risers shall be 4 inches (100 mm) high minimum and 7 inches (180 mm) high maximum. Treads shall be 11 inches (280 mm) deep minimum.

when you call an elevator, and you are in a chair, how do you get "the" accessible elevator to respond?

 

[mark handler]

Mark, After a little more research it looks as if there is an exception within ADA.... "where existing shaft configuration or technically infeasibility prohibits strict compliance with 4.10.9 the minimum plan dimensions may be reduced by the minimum amount necessary, but in no case shall the inside car area be smaller than 48" x 48"."I am not sure what you mean by......When you call the elevator, how does the "accessible elevator" know you are in a wheelchair? There are dedicated call buttons specifically for the fully complying and signed elevator.

I do not think there is anything that can be done with the service time situation.

And I do not even see where 7" maximum riser is even specified in the ADA, they only discuss the tread depth.

Scary, I hope you have good EO insurance

 

[JPohling]

Not sure what is scary?

The fully complying elevator has its own call buttons. you push the button and the fully accessible elevator comes and whisks you away to your destination. Other three elevators are complying except for the width being 78.5" instead of 80" and per 4.1.6 - 3.c.ii that is acceptable.

Stairs are a little more problematic, but in my mind they are technically infeasible to modify. 3/8" variance is allowed per CBC 1009.4.4, so a 7 3/8" riser is allowed, I do not believe that the intent of the ADA is to require a building owner to demo and reconstruct the two exit stair towers in a high rise to solve a 1/8" discrepancy. Are you saying that is what you would tell this building owner?

 

[mark handler]

Not sure what is scary?

To say that the building complies with a code because the stairs may or may not be exempt from fully compiling. Scary

To certify to a state agency,that the building complies with a code because the stairs may or may not be exempt from fully compiling. Scary

The fact that you could not find the 7" requirement in the ADASAD, Scary

What else Have you missed? Scary

Not to know, that when you press a call button in a bank of elevators, you can not typically call an individual elevator, Scary

You are about to certify to a governmental that a building complies to the ADA, when it may or may not, be merely exempt from some of it's requirements, Scary.

You are exposing your firm to a lot of liability

you don't know, what you don't know. Scary

 

[mark handler]

Because something is legal nonconforming does not mean is complies to the code

To certify that you should talk to a lawyer

You may want to talk with a CASp in your area

paul l. bishop SanDiego,CA

858-592-1533

paulbishop95@gmail.com

 

[JPohling]

Mark, I am sorry that when first grabbed the ADA document I grabbed the ADA Accessibility guidelines where it states...............

4.9 Stairs.

4.9.1* Minimum Number. Stairs required to be accessible by 4.1 shall comply with 4.9. Appendix Note

4.9.2 Treads and Risers. On any given flight of stairs, all steps shall have uniform riser heights and uniform tread widths. Stair treads shall be no less than 11 in (280 mm) wide, measured from riser to riser (see Fig. 18(a)). Open risers are not permitted.

4.9.3 Nosings. The undersides of nosings shall not be abrupt. The radius of curvature at the leading edge of the tread shall be no greater than 1/2 in (13 mm). Risers shall be sloped or the underside of the nosing shall have an angle not less than 60 degrees from the horizontal. Nosings shall project no more than 1-1/2 in (38 mm) (see Fig. 18).

That was my bad, but no mention of the 7" dim. Fully aware of the 7" requirement in the CBC.

So much for reading comprehension.........I believe I stated no fewer than 3 times the accessible elevator has "dedicated" call buttons "Specifically" for the notification of the accessible elevator!

I do not certify that the stairs are complying. I actually indicate that they are not complying and then provide them with the ADA exception verbiage and then the State agency obtains a letter from the RESD exempting my owner from that requirement and it is recorded in the lease documentation.

 

[mark handler]

4.9 Stairs.

Scary

you are using the OUTDATED ADAAAG not the current guidelines/standards 2010 ADASAD

The "504 Stairways" is not the CBC

 

[JPohling]

Scary is too many documents around. Just grabbed the wrong document. I am using the correct 2010 standards. The old 4.9.2 reference came directly from the State of Cal, 2011 "Access Compliance Facility Survey Checklist for State Leased Facilities"

Not sure why you mentioned 504 not being CBC?

 

[mark handler]

"Access Compliance Facility Survey Checklist for State Leased Facilities"

That document is out of date

 

[JPohling]

It may have out of date references, but the 2011 version is the current document.

 

[mark handler]

And you could not find the "7 inch" riser dimension?

8.3 Are the treads uniform and at least 11” wide measured from riser to riser and are the risers all uniform and between 4” and 7” in height?

http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/resd/RELPS/leaserequirements/consultant%20checklist.pdf

 

[JPohling]

Not sure what your point is............Of course I know the 7" max riser dim. is what is specified on the checklist 8.3. The confusion is that the ADA reference in 8.3 is 4.9.2 which i posted above and does not mention anything regarding riser height. That was the basis for the question. Its clear to me that they should have referenced 504.