jar546
Forum Coordinator
OK, so who goes into the crawlspace for the framing inspection?
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Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
- Thread starter jar546
- Start date
JBI
Registered User
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Jeff - Are these posts all from one location? Or did you just have a 'tigerloose' kind of a day? :lol: BTW, ALWAYS climb in for a look, you just never know what you'll find...
Jeff - Are these posts all from one location? Or did you just have a 'tigerloose' kind of a day? :lol: BTW, ALWAYS climb in for a look, you just never know what you'll find...
Guest
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
This should have been caught at the underfloor framing inspection. When they put the blocking in between the joist, the added weight just might be enough to overwhelm the toenails.
This should have been caught at the underfloor framing inspection. When they put the blocking in between the joist, the added weight just might be enough to overwhelm the toenails.
cboboggs
Moderator
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
"Blocking, we don't need no stinking blocking."
"Blocking, we don't need no stinking blocking."
texas transplant
Silver Member
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Wouldn't it still be tough to see this during an inspection even driving really slow with a clean windshield? :roll:
Wouldn't it still be tough to see this during an inspection even driving really slow with a clean windshield? :roll:
globe trekker
Registered User
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 1,739
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Yep Jeff,
That's another doozy! :lol:
Keep `em coming. We love to view the pics.
Yep Jeff,
That's another doozy! :lol:
Keep `em coming. We love to view the pics.
RJJ
Co-Founder
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
You all are being too hard! They plan to move the pier and grout the space between the beam and the supporting base. The shims are only temporary. Not a big deal!
You all are being too hard! They plan to move the pier and grout the space between the beam and the supporting base. The shims are only temporary. Not a big deal!
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Okay guys, help me out. I know it makes sense to have the support directly under the splice but I have looked for this type of installation in the code and can't find anything about splices in girders. You know they are going to have to splice it somewhere!
Also a comment was made about blocking. Where would the blocking be required?
Okay guys, help me out. I know it makes sense to have the support directly under the splice but I have looked for this type of installation in the code and can't find anything about splices in girders. You know they are going to have to splice it somewhere!
Also a comment was made about blocking. Where would the blocking be required?
Rider Rick
Silver Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 468
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
I think it would depend on the seismic zone.
2006 IRC 502.7 Lateral restraint at supports. Exception:
Rick
Mule,Mule said:
I think it would depend on the seismic zone.
2006 IRC 502.7 Lateral restraint at supports. Exception:
Rick
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Okay, in Seismic zones I can understand that on the blocking.
What about the splice in the girder? From what I read it is more of "here is how far the girder can span".
Can a splice (butt joint) be in a header/girder? I say yes, but I do not find where that splice has to be over a pier or some type of support. Is it good practice? You bet! Is it required? I don't know! That's why I'm asking.
Okay, in Seismic zones I can understand that on the blocking.
What about the splice in the girder? From what I read it is more of "here is how far the girder can span".
Can a splice (butt joint) be in a header/girder? I say yes, but I do not find where that splice has to be over a pier or some type of support. Is it good practice? You bet! Is it required? I don't know! That's why I'm asking.
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Mule,
2006 IRC, R502.6.1 Floor Systems. joist framing from opposite sides over a bearing suppport shall lap a minimum of 3 inches and shall be nailed together with a minimum three 10d face nails. A wood or metal splice with "strength equal to or greater" than that provided by the nailed lap is permitted. (An Engineer's drawing; as opposed to an opinion; would be required to insure that the "strength is equal to or greater")
With these ridiculously high roofs; I have had seen many hip splices; and after failing the butt splices; the plans started including a drawing of the splice. All of the different Engineers required a diagonal cut splice sandwiched with not less than 4' of OSB or plywood centered at the middle of the splice and on both sides of the splice; and included nailing instructions.
ps. It is easy to see if the splice is butted or diagonal by the location and angle of the cut on the bottom side of the hip. I have had framers try to hide a butt splice by nailing a board on the underside of the hip. When I told them to take the board off the underside before I would pass the inspection; they had to replace the hip. Word got out pretty quick.
Hope this helps,
Uncle Bob
Mule,
2006 IRC, R502.6.1 Floor Systems. joist framing from opposite sides over a bearing suppport shall lap a minimum of 3 inches and shall be nailed together with a minimum three 10d face nails. A wood or metal splice with "strength equal to or greater" than that provided by the nailed lap is permitted. (An Engineer's drawing; as opposed to an opinion; would be required to insure that the "strength is equal to or greater")
With these ridiculously high roofs; I have had seen many hip splices; and after failing the butt splices; the plans started including a drawing of the splice. All of the different Engineers required a diagonal cut splice sandwiched with not less than 4' of OSB or plywood centered at the middle of the splice and on both sides of the splice; and included nailing instructions.
ps. It is easy to see if the splice is butted or diagonal by the location and angle of the cut on the bottom side of the hip. I have had framers try to hide a butt splice by nailing a board on the underside of the hip. When I told them to take the board off the underside before I would pass the inspection; they had to replace the hip. Word got out pretty quick.
Hope this helps,
Uncle Bob
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Does that apply to girders? Or I guess girders are a part of the floor system huh?
I guess when thinking ends, I was thinking the very end product and not a splice end.
Then actually from this viewpoint (picture) a pier or support would be required to be 6" wide so that the ends of both 2X's ar sitting 3" on a support and not at all like the picture.
Sometimes I get to thinking and that hurts!
Does that apply to girders? Or I guess girders are a part of the floor system huh?
I guess when thinking ends, I was thinking the very end product and not a splice end.
Then actually from this viewpoint (picture) a pier or support would be required to be 6" wide so that the ends of both 2X's ar sitting 3" on a support and not at all like the picture.
Sometimes I get to thinking and that hurts!
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
R502.6 Bearing. The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete except where supported on a 1-inch-by-4-inch (25.4 mm by 102 mm) ribbon strip and nailed to the adjacent stud or by the use of approved joist hangers.
With the butt joint this in effect two beams meeting (joined) over the pier.
R502.6 Bearing. The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete except where supported on a 1-inch-by-4-inch (25.4 mm by 102 mm) ribbon strip and nailed to the adjacent stud or by the use of approved joist hangers.
With the butt joint this in effect two beams meeting (joined) over the pier.
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
I didn't have the mindset that the end of a beam could be in the middle of a beam. But now I am getting it!
Now they could have an engineer look at it and determine how to fix it. Maybe a plate with lag screws. Am I on the right track now????
I didn't have the mindset that the end of a beam could be in the middle of a beam. But now I am getting it!
Now they could have an engineer look at it and determine how to fix it. Maybe a plate with lag screws. Am I on the right track now????
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
Mule,
I had it wrong; and, RogerPa had it right since it is a beam;
"The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete"
I hate to be wrong; it just plain sucks!
Uncle Bob
Mule,
I had it wrong; and, RogerPa had it right since it is a beam;
"The ends of each joist, beam or girder shall have not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) on masonry or concrete"
I hate to be wrong; it just plain sucks!
Uncle Bob
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
UB
I've NEVER been wrong!!! Yeah right!
This is why I started asking my questions. I have been thinking...how is this type of installation actually hurting anything? The splice is only a few inches from the support and it's a double 2X! How is this type of installation doing to fail??? These were some of my thoughts. An end of a geam never entered my mind!
Yeah but is the 1 1/2" shim considered resting on wood? Or is it resting on concrete with a shim???
UB
I've NEVER been wrong!!! Yeah right!
This is why I started asking my questions. I have been thinking...how is this type of installation actually hurting anything? The splice is only a few inches from the support and it's a double 2X! How is this type of installation doing to fail??? These were some of my thoughts. An end of a geam never entered my mind!
Yeah but is the 1 1/2" shim considered resting on wood? Or is it resting on concrete with a shim???
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
When I was a carpenter; thousands of years ago; and built pier and beam homes; we had to use shim materials to level the floor. We always stagered the double and overlaped 3"; with full bearing on the pier and/or shim material. Our piers were at least 12" in diameter.
However, I believe that the end of the beams must have 3" of full bearing on the pier and/or shim material. The shim material does not eliminate the 3" bearing requirement for concrete.
Note: I've always been against the allowance of the 1" X 4" ribbon strip. But, then I'm an old "full bearing" carpenter (no stupid hangers either).
I don't know what I said; but, I hope it's right. I got up too early this morning (2 am is too early; 4 or 5 am is normal).
Uncle Bob
When I was a carpenter; thousands of years ago; and built pier and beam homes; we had to use shim materials to level the floor. We always stagered the double and overlaped 3"; with full bearing on the pier and/or shim material. Our piers were at least 12" in diameter.
However, I believe that the end of the beams must have 3" of full bearing on the pier and/or shim material. The shim material does not eliminate the 3" bearing requirement for concrete.
Note: I've always been against the allowance of the 1" X 4" ribbon strip. But, then I'm an old "full bearing" carpenter (no stupid hangers either).
I don't know what I said; but, I hope it's right. I got up too early this morning (2 am is too early; 4 or 5 am is normal).
Uncle Bob
Mac
Gold Member
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
If we set the wayback machine to 1988, the NFPA Manual of Wood Frame Construction says "End joints of the nailed lumber should occur over the supporting column or pier." I take this to mean the bitter end or butt joint of one or more laminated beams or girders.
Next sentence: "End joints in adjacent pieces should be at least 16 inches apart." This I think refers to a running splice joint of only one of the pieces in the laminated girder.
BTW, that's National Forest Products Assoc.
If we set the wayback machine to 1988, the NFPA Manual of Wood Frame Construction says "End joints of the nailed lumber should occur over the supporting column or pier." I take this to mean the bitter end or butt joint of one or more laminated beams or girders.
Next sentence: "End joints in adjacent pieces should be at least 16 inches apart." This I think refers to a running splice joint of only one of the pieces in the laminated girder.
BTW, that's National Forest Products Assoc.
JBI
Registered User
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
That was NForPA, Mac. But that's why they're now AWPA, less confusing.
Offsetting the splices in multi-ply beams by a minimum length allows the plies to act as the gusset plates for one another (essentially). There still needs to be some support, but if you offset them enough, you don't necessarily need a pier under each joint in each ply. JMHO.
That was NForPA, Mac. But that's why they're now AWPA, less confusing.
Offsetting the splices in multi-ply beams by a minimum length allows the plies to act as the gusset plates for one another (essentially). There still needs to be some support, but if you offset them enough, you don't necessarily need a pier under each joint in each ply. JMHO.
Re: Center beam end bearing in crawlspace
So John, the installation in the picture is "to code" according to this interpretation if the splices are more than 16" apart.
This was/is my opinion too. But then you guys get me to thinking......and that hurts!
So John, the installation in the picture is "to code" according to this interpretation if the splices are more than 16" apart.
This was/is my opinion too. But then you guys get me to thinking......and that hurts!