• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Contractors and education, take 2

jar546

jar546

Forum Coordinator
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
11,028
Location
Somewhere Too Hot & Humid
This may be more of a whine and cheese post but this is truly a problem in the building industry. Pardon my rant.

Participation in educational seminars, actually owning the code books that apply and the thirst for code requirements seem to be lacking in the contractor trades.

The only exception for this observation appears to be electricians who in many states and municipalities are required to have continuing education credits. Many other trades have no formal training, lack code class attendance and simply learn about code changes by failing inspections.

Paying your dues to the local builders association does not make you a good or knowledgeable contractor. Unfortunately, this appears to be the mind-set.

This turns into a no-win situation for everyone, property owner, contractor and of course inspector. If I specify the code section for a defect then I get a phone call asking me what that means and where can they find that. This means they do not have a code book for their trade. If I don't specify a code section then they ask me where it says that is required. When I tell them where, I am then asked where they can buy that book.

We as inspectors are not perfect, we make mistakes and so do contractors. The difference is that we try to improve ourselves through education and sharing knowledge on forums such as this one. On the other end many contractors really have no interest other than increasing their profit and moving on to the next job. We are seen as a hinderance and something that is not necessary.

Over 1 year into this board and this is the 2nd thread in the contractors area. Amazing when I have failed hundreds of jobs in the last year and I am just 1 inspector in 1 little area. Rant over. :inspctr
 
Right on Jar,

Contractors in our area that own a code book (any edition, not necessarily the currently adopted one) are few and far between. I've been asking local contractors for more than a decade to go grab their code book and lets look up that section or chart. Blank stare 9 times out of 10.
 
If the builders associations would spend more money, time and effort on education rather than lobbying for relaxing of code rules through the powers that be, they may actually learn something.

I hope a contractor reading this forum as a guest will register, log in and debate this. We need more participation from contractors.

To qualify this post, this is not true of all contractors but I will say that the vast majority are severely lacking in job/code knowledge which go together.

To our contractors who are registered and read this forum regularly, thank you for being here, you are here for knowledge and should be commended.
 
This will not change until all states require a contractor to do CEU's just as architecture, engineering, and code enforcement requires. Until then, we will always be the bad guys since we are up to date on code changes and leaves it up to us to be the educators and regulators of the code..... Not a good mix.
 
Just my $0.02.

As a former carpenter/homebuilder, I can say that the companies I worked for considered "the code" as whatever the local inspector needed to see to sign off on the job.

After many years of working for others, I started my own company. I had one inspector from a town where I built a dozen or so homes who was a Code junkie. He is the one who inspired me to get into the Codes, and buy the books for the first time. I had honestly never even read a code book prior to meeting him.

This is not to say that my company or the others I worked for did sub-standard, or non-compliant work. I learned from craftsmen who passed down the knowledge over generations, and we were building some damn fine homes. Meeting my "mentor" inspector was good for both of us (I think) as we were able to discuss both the theory and the practice on professional terms.

As I said in the previous thread, there is no incentive for contractors to learn or keep up with the Codes. The more "important" factors (in their eyes) of customer satisfaction and profitability drive the education train.

One of the main reasons I came over to the "other side" was to act as a conduit between the contractors and building officials and hopefully help both to understand each others views a bit better.

It's been an enlightening 2-1/2 years so far, and I can honestly say I've learned more from this forum group than any class I've ever attended.

That's why I'm a supporting member (shameless plug)

mj
 
Jar,

I believe your rant is some what warranted and some what proven a non issue.

Electrical contractors for the most part as with plumbing contractors deal with a small amount of change with their product from project to project and those that venture out beyond the normal day to day standard items take extra care because it changes the cost factor of the project.

There are many states that have had contractor lic.s with required continuing education requirements and those contractors still fail inspections.

You just happen to be smack dab in the middle of an area that had no uniform code requirements or contractor lic. requirements for decades except electrical for the most part.

As for posting in this area, why would I? I am going to post my questions under the topic headings for code information. As for contractor questions, I am going to my associations forum for that what are code officials going to tell me about the education of my specific industry that the associations I am members of wont cover better?

For job site safety I am going to the National Safety Council site?

For educational information I am going to my industries site?

This site is centered on code information, one comes here for code information and a Job if you are an out of work inspector.

To be specific, I am a member of the National Ornamental and Miscellaneous Metals Association (http://www.nomma.org), the membership specialize in Division 5 metals, now think about how many of those companies are out there in the USA, NOMMA has about 750 members internationally, I can say about 80% of our members either own code books or have computer links to were they are on the internet.

Owning a code book does not mean you know how to use it correctly, nor do or inspect the work. Working as an inspector does not mean you know what you are doing either, it just means you passed the minimum requirements to work in that field.

I have run in to many inspectors across this country that I question how they got their position and many contractors that I would agree with your statement.

All in all I can only say it was my first failure by an inspector of my work that took the time to explain to me (nicely) son, come down to the building department and read through the code book posted at the counter. If you are going to work in this Industry you will need to know this stuff and knowing it will prevent you from SPENDING extra money replacing improper workmanship. ;)
 
tbz, well said and YES, I am in and area that only had a statewide code since 2004. That has a major affect in most areas since only a few of the larger municipalities actually had codes adopted with inspections prior to 2004. Where I came from had the BOCA and one of my good friends had previously been a CABO inspector.
 
I also wish that more contractors owned code books; anytime a contractor (or homeowner) disagrees with a section of the code I invite them to come down to the office so we can sit down, open up the book, and discuss the section - I have yet to have anyone take me up on that offer.
 
Where's that beating a dead horse simile.

When you get tired of complaining about the other guy, remember back to when you started in whatever trade. Never once was the new guy handed a code book and he never will. He/she will learn by watching and doing whatever the guy paying the bills tells him to do.

Much as I hate watching Holmes and some other the other remodeler on the DIY networks, he at least takes the time to explain why he's doing it this way or why that's wrong. Wish there were more out there doing that. Of course that goes for inspectors also.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I agree as more states require continuing education as a requirement for licensure, contractors will become better informed and at least may be able to see the pitfalls approaching. However, one thing my time on this forum has shown me is that there are many sections in the current codes that just don't make sense. See 2006 IRC Section R308.4 exception 9.3. What good would it do a contractor to know and understand this section when every local jurisdiction has a different take. ( I just asked the Oregon Building Codes Division for an interpretation of this section and got something totally different than what's being enforced here.)

I'm not condemning the ICC codes, they are surely better than the old CABO code I used to enforce. But I will say that an inspector's job will never lack a measure of educator/communicator mixed into the job description.

Bill
 
* * * *

O.K., ...I'll play the devil's advocate here as a house constructor.

"Why should I spend my money [ i.e. - profits ] on code books and training,

when all I have to do is pick up the telephone and call the Mayor,

local Commissioner / Alderman, local elected official and remind them

that I voted them in to office, ...and I contributed to their election

campaign, ...and I am an important person in the community because

I provide jobs, ...and I pay taxes, ...and I support education in the

community, ...and I help little `ol ladies, ...and I wear the right

colored underwear, etc. etc., and that knothead Inspector / Building

Official is holding up progress in your community and is costing me

money.....I ain't got time to buy and learn no %#@*&^% codes.

I am out there building your community, because I do quality work

and I hire only quality professionals, and this is the way my pappy

and his pappy and his pappy before him has always done things......We

ain't never had no problems before, ...`cause I am a quality builder.

I DID mention to you that I contributed a lot of money to your

election campaign didn't I, and that I am a quality builder who is

building you a quality community?....You DO want me to contribute

to your "re-election campaign" don't you?........Well, ...don't you?"

* * * *
 
* * * *

What's in it for them to build to code, or even, ..."above code"? [ i.e. - where's

the money to go to the extra effort? ]....Their "puffed up" egos aren't the only

reason they have building materials assembled. :eek: ....All they have to do is make

it look sale-able, not code compliant!

* * * *
 
north star said:
* * * *What's in it for them to build to code, or even, ..."above code"? [ i.e. - where's

the money to go to the extra effort? ]....Their "puffed up" egos aren't the only

reason they have building materials assembled. :eek: ....All they have to do is make

it look sale-able, not code compliant!

* * * *
Click to expand...
Sale-able is good enough? Is that how you think we really see it?

How about after the inspector grants the CO and then sits back behind his code bestowed immunity while the contractor has to stand behind his work, literally forever.

Puffed up ego?!?

I Should Say!

Bill
 
Last edited by a moderator:
North Star and others,

I believe as time progresses most contractors will have code books. Personally, for many years it was simply a full time job just to keep it updated and current.

Many municipalities adopted model codes, published amendments and did not publish revised code books, so you spent more time figuring out what to use than what you really needed to know and what I would call wasted time that could be answered a lot faster with a quick phone call.

Today as computers become smaller and faster it is just a quick click to get the information. I am now using my Palm Phone to go over codes in the field with inspectors, not even a laptop anymore.

Also, you will always have two grades of contractor, those that do fine work with errors from time to time and those that should not be doing work.

It is clear that it does not matter if you require Lic., training, CEU's, insurance and many other requirements, there are those contractors that will photo shop the information they need on to paperwork for the few times they accually get a permit.

And the Customers that use them, well they really don't care because money is money and all products to them cost the same.

To end this week I part with this, I went in to the new deli last week for a cup of chicken soup, when I opened the container and put my spoon in, it was all broth, I asked wheres the chicken and veggies? He replied what do you want for a $1.50, I replied my money back.
 
My story is similar to mjesse, except I was also a volunteer firefighter while pounding nails framing houses. What I learned in the trades became invaluable as I worked my way up the fire service food chain. Once I became a fire inspector, and learned codes for the first time, I became outraged that buildings I was familiar with in town were so full of code violations, even newer buildings. That's when I found out that building departments seemed more about revenue collection and political favoritism than code compliance.

My goal since then has been to change that into making sure what gets built gets built correctly. It is a never-ending struggle.
 
MA will be going over to requiring CEU's soon for renewing licenses for contractors. Several contractors I spoke with said that when they need to start taking classes, it'll be time to retire. I have NEVER once yet run into a contractor that has a code book, in fact they expect us to tell them what's needed. They'll happily fail an inspection and correct something than buy a book and figure it out.
 
I am all for CEU's for license renewal, but do not share any negative perspective towards the tradition of contractors depending on the building departments. Contractors working in multiple ahj's are subject to local restrictions, and, local interpretation of the code. Also, I can think of more than a few times in these forums where I learned what the code said as opposed to what I thought it said.
 
Oregon now has a requirement for CEUs for contractors. However, there is no requirements as to subjects, instructors, where to get education, study guides or proof of CEUs. I think many contractors do no more than write something on a piece of paper that claims they did something resembling CEUs, and that just before they renew their license.

You might think the Construction Contractor's Board would have a list of places to get some education. No, that is not thier job. You might think that the CCB would have a source for Code Books. No. You might think the CCB would list Oregon Building Officials Association as a source for code classes and code books. Again, no. There is no communication as to education or required code books.

The building inspector's office should have a set of current code books on the counter, and available for anyone to look at. No copies made, whether a contractor or a property owner. They need a set of code books for their current project. There should also be a source for the purchase of the books. But, the inspector should also have a copy of the current code, with him when inspections are being made. I have worked with only one inspector who showed up on the job with the proper code book for what I was working on. How can you tell that what I am doing does or does not meet the code? More importantly, how do you know the low-baller who beat me out of the job,is following code? A copy of the current code should be on the job site with every contractor during the inspection process. Then the inspector should be able to show the contractor the code.

And don't get me started on the FD inspector that cannot tell if the sprinkler system is shut off or the FACP shows all red/yellow lights or hte fire extinguishers are discharged, and says "Every think looks OK to me" and leaves.

End of rant. Someone else can have a turn
 
You would never pass the Virginia contractor's exam if you didn't own and understand the code book. This exam was at least as hard if not harder than any exams that I have passed through the ICC. The test is four parts and they cover contractor law, Virginia and Federal business laws (how to do FICA and payroll and OSHA), and then the last part is all code (basically the Residential Building Inspector test). The whole thing is about 4 1/2 hours and hard.
 
My story is also similar to MJesse's, in the late 50s I met an inspector who was drawing plans on the side for a contractor I worked for as a carpenter, we became friends and he encouraged me to learn codes when I asked him about the little black dog-eared book he was constantly referring to. I asked him where I could buy one and he told me about a bookstore in San Francisco, so I drove across the bridge and bought the book, it was about ¾" thick back then. By the time I became a contractor we started meeting and he tutored me, he was a degreed engineer, we socialized with our families together, I invited him to HAHB Christmas parties, he invited me to building inspector retirement parties.

Once I was remodeling a bar that wasn't even in his district, I showed up one day and he was supervising my men for me, bottle of beer in hand, telling them when they were doing something wrong, after that I always called him when I was remodeling a bar and told him where we were going to be working.

To this day I always keep code books in my job trailer, many specifications require us contractors to provide a plan table complete with approved plans, shop drawings, and code books for the use of the architects, engineers and inspectors on larger jobs, so once you do it on larger jobs it just makes since to do it on residential as well.
 
Builder Bob said:
.... Until then, we will always be the bad guys since we are up to date on code changes and leaves it up to us to be the educators and regulators of the code..... Not a good mix.
Click to expand...
This brings up a good point (and very timely for me!). I am in the midst of a conversation with my local HBA regarding just this issue (lack of code knowledge), and they seem somewhat receptive - even indicating that they would be open to undergoing training. The problem is - in our area, we have no training providers. They are asking if I would be willing to conduct the trainings. On one hand, I would be more than happy to assist them, but on the other hand, I have some serious reservations about - as Builder Bob says -- being the "educator and regulator". A third-party fresh perspective on codes would benefit them much more than having me do it.

What are your thoughts on wearing a teacher's hat on Tuesday night, and showing up on their jobsites on Wednesday morning in your inspector hat? Somehow seems to veer into the gray periphery of "conflict of interest" territory, doesn't it???
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top