Design Professional debate

[RickAstoria]

heaven??

spank my shared AA

?? might be fun if your saying you can only do a half a.. job has a code official, how do you feel?? :?

I do a great job as a B.O., thanks.

Wonderful thing about life is that there are so many perspectives.

Too bad you are unwilling to accept that your perspective isn't the only valid one.

Nuff of this foolishness, I'm done.

Ok. sounds good. I have no issue with a B.O. doing some calcs if they have any education/experience in engineering science. With none- then no. With any, it depends on how much. If you do calcs, the civil laws governing professional standard of care (ie. what a prudent person would do... benchmark) applies. I don't care if you have an official in-classroom education or not. I expect you to know something about (to a competent level) what you are reviewing the calcs before you run through the calcs.

Kilitact, that is what I am saying. You or any reasonable person would expect me to know something about engineering science before I apply it in my profession of designing buildings or get someone who already has that knowledge as a consultant (eg. an engineer). It is a matter of what is prudent. I'm sure you can agree with this fundamental point.

We all are doing what can be done. If Heaven was in a position where he is able to have additional staff then he can do more. This is what happens when your employer (municipal/county government) is not willing or able to pay for more staff.

 

[kilitact]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

From Chapter 2, Definitions: 2008 Oregon Residential Specialty Code

Design Professional. See the definition of “Registered Design Professional”Registered Design Professional; An individual who is registered or licensed to practice their respective design profession as defined by the statutory requirements of the professional registration laws of the state or jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed.

If not a professional than a non-professional

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

From Chapter 2, Definitions: 2008 Oregon Residential Specialty Code

Design Professional. See the definition of “Registered Design Professional”Registered Design Professional; An individual who is registered or licensed to practice their respective design profession as defined by the statutory requirements of the professional registration laws of the state or jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed.

If not a professional than a non-professional

Do you realize that the only time in the code uses "Design Professional" is in definition and everywhere else it uses "Registered Design Professional". It is simply there to define what is meant by "Registered Design Professional" because there is no use of the term "Design Professional" used.

SECTION 201

GENERAL

201.1 Scope. Unless otherwise expressly stated, the following

words and terms shall, for the purposes of this code, have the

meanings shown in this chapter.

201.2 Interchangeability. Words used in the present tense

include the future; words stated in the masculine gender

include the feminine and neuter; the singular number includes

the plural and the plural, the singular.

201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not

defined in this code and are defined in the Fuel Gas Code, Fire

Code, Mechanical Code or Plumbing Code, such terms shall

have the meanings ascribed to them as in those codes.

201.4 Terms not defined. Where terms are not defined

through the methods authorized by this section, such terms

shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context

implies. Words of common usage are given their plain, natural,

and ordinary meanings. Words that have well-defined legal

meanings are given those meanings.

Ok, there is a section in Chapter 1 with heading Design Professional in Responsible Charge in 106.3.4

When you read the section, it explicitly uses "registered design professional". The way the model code was written and mediocre amendment, it is explicitly in the context about registered design professional. Nothing says that I am not a design professional. The code text is simply a regulation. It is not statutory.

The only use I noticed of the word "Design Professional" is a header for a section. The Definition section in Chapter 2 for defining the terms as used in the code. It doesn't say or mean that a unregistered designer in not a Design Professional. There is NO statutes (ie. law) that says a building designer is not a professional. The code goes about explicitly using the term "Registered Design Professional". Why do you think they did that? Would it be redundant if Design Professional was meant to ONLY mean a designer who is registered (architect, engineers,ect.). It is just that there is no specific code section distinctively for "unlicensed" designers. The definition scope is purely contextual.

 

[kilitact]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

Rick A wrote:

I would be cautious about use of terms like professional and non-professional. It can be interpreted in many ways and the code does not define the word 'professional' and the word 'non-professional'.

Design Professional. See the definition of “Registered Design Professional”Registered Design Professional; An individual who is registered or licensed to practice their respective design profession as defined by the statutory requirements of the professional registration laws of the state or jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed.

You made a statement that once again is not correct. Yes its in the code in more places than definitions.

rick a wrote;

Do you realize that the only time in the code uses "Design Professional" is in definition

you should try to read and understand the codes,its in a few sections, before making statements that would lead the uninformed to think that theres no diference between a design professional and a non-professional designer.

rick a wrote;

The definition scope is purely contextual.

Its building code

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

rick a wrote;

Do you realize that the only time in the code uses "Design Professional" is in definition

you should try to read and understand the codes,its in a few sections, before making statements that would lead the uninformed to think that theres no diference between a design professional and a non-professional designer.

rick a wrote;

The definition scope is purely contextual.

Its building code [/quote:1ntl9lk0]

BTW: If you look closely, Design Professional is not in the 2007 OSSC. That was removed.

I know, 2008 ORSC - they were sloppy about it but remember that the definition is about defining the meaning of intent of the terms used in the codes as the context is implied in each of the use of the term in each code section.

However, you keep applying your use of the code contextual terms outside the explicit context of a code section. Nothing in code is implied or intended to preclude commonly used terms throughout the entire industry.

 

[kilitact]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

rick a wrote,

BTW: If you look closely, Design Professional is not in the 2007 OSSC. That was removed.

:roll:

Uncle Bob wrote;

I forget; what is this thread about?

Supposed to be Residential Code, OSSC would be that other tread, has others had posted.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

rick a wrote,

BTW: If you look closely, Design Professional is not in the 2007 OSSC. That was removed.

:roll:

Uncle Bob wrote;

I forget; what is this thread about?

Supposed to be Residential Code, OSSC would be that other tread, has others had posted. [/quote:3twpwkd3]

I don't put that much impetus of the definition of Design Professional on the codes. Why, it is just a model code that is half-hazardly amended by the state. Courts aren't going to depend their ruling on the code book. Building Design activity has long been consider a professional activity.

Keep in mind, the forum name is called Residential Structural >> Residential Framing. It is not Residential code. Both codes can apply. OSSC applies to residential as well as commercial. ORSC applies to Residential. IBC applies to commercial & residential whereas IRC is for residential.

 

[brudgers]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

I don't put that much impetus of the definition of Design Professional on the codes.

I learn something new every day.

 

[brudgers]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

We are talking maximum tensile force which is the most critical thing.

The person properly qualified to determine the "critical thing" is a design professional.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

We are talking maximum tensile force which is the most critical thing.

The person properly qualified to determine the "critical thing" is a design professional.

Of course but not necessarily a Registered Design Professional. I was already done talking about this. It was continued for some reason...

Anyway, this was something that I was pointing out to Kil because some jerk (perhaps an RDP) might drop one of these kinds of systems on his lap - or maybe not.

FWIW, lets move on.

 

[kilitact]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers wrote;

The person properly qualified to determine the "critical thing" is a design professional.

Rick a wrote;

Of course but not necessarily a Registered Design Professional

Try to remember the IRC code definition for design professional is one who is a Registered Design Professional.

A non-professional designer, such as yourself, is not registered.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers wrote;

The person properly qualified to determine the "critical thing" is a design professional.

Rick a wrote;

Of course but not necessarily a Registered Design Professional

Try to remember the IRC code definition for design professional is one who is a Registered Design Professional.

A non-professional designer, such as yourself, is not registered. [/quote:22hmytqd]

Try to remember the definition applies only within the context of the words & terms as applied and used in the code. It does not intend to negate the ordinary meaning of words and terms (such as those found in the code) when not used within the code.

Try also to remember the "Design Professional" is almost exclusively used in section title headers. Pass the headers and into the actual code section, the words Registered design professional is used.

There is obvious reason for that. The code is simply silent about a design professional who is not registered because they are wanting to be clear about what group of design professionals is being meant by when the term "Design Professional" as far as the applicability of the code section(s). Over the years, they have gone as far as using the term "Registered Design Professional".

There is reasons also for the problematic context issue. The reason - the model code is built to try to comply with the most restrictive laws such as places like New Jersey or New York where there is no exemption and the only Design Professionals are Registered. It is somewhat complicated when the code is developed by a schizophrenic committee(s) and amended by each state's own schizophrenic committee(s) and they don't always deal with every word.

You should assume the meaning as the context applies in each code section. In the code sections (as of current), you can safely assume that it is registered design professional that is meant by when Design Professional is used as far as applicability. But you should also recognize that design professional as a word has multiple meaning and when we are using it outside the context of a code section - that we are using a broader industry-wide use of the term which DOES include persons who are not licensed/registered.

There is NO terminology used in the code to refer to someone who is not registered other then person which can also refer to an RDP depending on sentence, paragraph, or code section context. There is no such term as "non-professional designer" used in the code. When you start applying such terms, then you are defaulting to industry terminology which can apply the ordinary dictionary definition of the words. In such case, I would disagree with you on such terminology about a building designer.

Therefore, Unregistered Design Professional (UDP) OR Non-registered Design Professional (NDP) would be appropriate and less insulting. Just use RDP (Registered Design Professional) when you are referring to a registered design professional. Use one of the two above (UDP or NDP) to refer to a non-registered design professional (and use an ordinary dictionary definition - which would include building designers, home designers, interior designers, IDP interns, construction contractors who does Design/Build, and others who does design services or work in the architectural, building, interior and landscape Design industry for a living.

Construction Contractors are licensed to construct but may not be licensed or registered as an Architect or Engineer. However, a Construction Contractor may be an RDP if they are registered as an Architect, Engineer or whatever design occupation is required to be licensed/registered in order to perform such services. In Oregon, that may include: Architects, Professional Engineers (any of the disciplines), Professional Land Surveyors, Geologist, Landscape Architects, ect.

A "Non-Professional" would be a home owner who does not work in the design/construction occupation. Example: A home owner who designs their own house. Ok. They are a "Non-professional" or "Non-Professional Designer". They don't do this for a living.

Kilitact, this is how I view it and I personally take it as an insult to be called a non-professional designer. I am done arguing with you but if you are going to use terms that are not even in the code book then why should we be bound by the code definition when we are talking industry terms & design professional has multiple definitions and some include building designers such as myself. Believe me, I do feel like heading over to your office and yanking you out of your little cubicle office and show you what building designers do.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

Design Professional

A term used generally to refer to architects; civil, structural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, and heating, ventilating, and air conditioning engineers; interior designers; landscape architects; and others whose services have traditionally been considered "professional" activities, require licensing or registration by the state, or otherwise require the knowledge and application of design principles appropriate to the problem at hand.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since you use a non-code terminology. Then we might as well not limit ourselves to the code defined definition (unless we are analyzing a code section then the context at hand should apply).

Non-registered Design Professional (NDP) or Unregistered Design Professional (UDP) can be defined as below:

A design professional who is not licensed or registered by the state in which they are practicing but has acquired and applies the required knowledge and application of design principles appropriate to the project at hand.

There are many ways this can be written. How the knowledge and application of design principles is acquired is irrelevant.

Below is a link from a Career site that quite fairly depicts what a Building Designer is and a reasonable definition described within it:

http://education-portal.com/articles/Bu ... ofile.html

 

[kilitact]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

Rick a wrote;

but if you are going to use terms that are not even in the code book then why should we be bound by the code definition when we are talking industry terms & design professional has multiple definitions and some include building designers such as myself. Believe me, I do feel like heading over to your office and yanking you out of your little cubicle office and show you what building designers do.

The term Design Professional is in the code, the Oregon Residential Specialty Code 2007 edition. I strongly suggest that, even through you are a non-professional designer; you familiarize yourself with the code that you supposedly utilize in your “business”. Your statement of yanking me out of my little cubicle is comical on a couple different levels. I look around my office and it seems quite spacious, but in comparison with your office, maybe you would consider it to be cramped. This statement of yours, in of itself, would in my opinion heighten the degree of non-professionalism, which you appear to expound. I wonder if you read and or understand what you post??

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

Rick a wrote;The term Design Professional is in the code, the Oregon Residential Specialty Code 2007 edition. I strongly suggest that, even through you are a non-professional designer; you familiarize yourself with the code that you supposedly utilize in your “business”. Your statement of yanking me out of my little cubicle is comical on a couple different levels. I look around my office and it seems quite spacious, but in comparison with your office, maybe you would consider it to be cramped. This statement of yours, in of itself, would in my opinion heighten the degree of non-professionalism, which you appear to expound. I wonder if you read and or understand what you post??

Ok, I was being a smart-ass back at you. Here is the thing, the code definition is not to be used outside the context of the building code text as it is used in the code. PERIOD. It isn't the Bible. It isn't the only definition that is going to matter. Although this forum maybe a forum focused on the building codes, it isn't the only definition.

In fact, there is NO such thing as a "non-professional designer" in the code.

I am a "Building Designer" and it is not defined in code, you might just need to read 201.4 of the 2007 OSSC or the 2008 ORSC (R201.4) for terms not defined in the code.

201.4 Terms not defined. Where terms are not defined

through the methods authorized by this section, such terms

shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context

implies. Words of common usage are given their plain, natural,

and ordinary meanings. Words that have well-defined legal

meanings are given those meanings.

Terms not defined in code: I gave you such a term. There is also Wikipedia and other terms.

The rest of the world of Architectural/Building Design, Engineering & Construction has considered Building Designers as professionals.

Wikipedia

-------------------------------

Building designer

In most places, building codes and legislation of professions allow persons to design single family residential buildings and in some cases light commercial buildings without an architectural license. As such, a "Building designer" is a common, general term used in the United States, Canada and elsewhere for people that offer building design services but are not legally entitled to practice architecture or building engineering. In Australia a Building Designers duties are no different than that of an Architects. While the study undertaken is the same and the qualification similar the only thing that separates the two is the licensing body through which they gain accreditation. Anyone may use the title of "building designer" in the broadest sense. In some places, most notably in the United States, the term 'Registered Building Designer' is recognised as a person registered with a registered society and having fulfilled requirements enabling them as being suitably experienced and qualified to design smaller residential and commercial buildings[citation needed]. Building designers in the United States may qualify to sit for a certification exam administered by the National Council of Building Designer Certification (NCBDC). Those who have successful passed the NCBDC exam are given the title Certified Professional Building Designer ®[citation needed]{[1][2]}. This does not, however, provide the membership with professional privileges as with architects and engineers. In most cases, building designers are trained as architectural technologists or draftspersons, but often they are architecture graduates that have not completed licensing requirements.

Many building designers are known as "residential" or "home designers" since many focus solely on residential design and remodeling. In the American state of Nevada, "Residential Designer" is a regulated term for those who are registered as such under Nevada State Board of Architecture, Interior Design and Residential Design, and one may not legally represent themself in a professional capacity without being currently registered.

Now consider that for a moment. and the link as follow:

http://education-portal.com/articles/Bu ... ofile.html

http://education-portal.com/articles/Bu ... esign.html

Learn something about what a Building Designer is before you say if they are not a professional

What is the definition of a professional?

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional

Go there and read what it says.

Kil, would you agree that it is a reasonable definition of a professional.

Next look up Building Design... therefore would a building designer be a Building Design Professional

Is Building Design a form of Design?

 

[packsaddle]

 

[fatboy]

are you trying to start something pack?

 

[peach]

yeah.. don't chew with your mouth open..

Each state regulates "design professionals' a little differently, regardless of what the Code says.