jar546
Forum Coordinator
Where I started working, each and every violation and plan review deficiency must be referenced to a specific code section. Is this standard practice for your jurisdiction?
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Do You Cite Code Sections for Every Violation?
- Thread starter jar546
- Start date
No, never. That is insane and a waste of everyone's time and resources. I can't believe someone would come up with that idea. We are professionals in the job because we understand the code and it's provisions, not the organization of multiple books. We should not spend our time or memory to memorize the location in a book. We are professionals at interpreting the intent and purpose of the provisions. We are not book memorizers and monologue performers. If we are challenged or if questions are asked, we should then be able to provide validation of our interpretation and the words we are interpreting. In doing so we should have the time to sit down, open the book and find it. I have been pulled over for speeding, and I trust the officer knows the speed limit or infraction I made. Never has it been presented to me by ordinance number. If I doubt him, it is challenged and researched in court...where time can be had to look up the exact ordinance number.
conarb
Registered User
I don't know about the law in California but they always cite code sections here, and have for the last 65 Years that I've been doing business.
When the government imposes an obligation on an individual the individual has a right to know what he is compelled to do. If instead we believe that the building official is not required to justify his demands we have said that the building official is a law unto himself.
When the plan checker references the code section it allows the applicant to know what needs to be done. It also allows the applicant to decide whether he agrees with the comment or whether he wants to appeal the demand.
You could require the applicant to request the code provision but it is so much cleaner if it is provided with the original comment.
When the plan checker references the code section it allows the applicant to know what needs to be done. It also allows the applicant to decide whether he agrees with the comment or whether he wants to appeal the demand.
You could require the applicant to request the code provision but it is so much cleaner if it is provided with the original comment.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
I know that in Pennsylvania if you get a traffic ticket, it must cite the exact law number you have violated and if that is incorrect, it is grounds for dismissal.
Now back to building codes. In PA, you are not required to cite every single code violation with a reference to the exact code but it is helpful when there are questions and it eliminates all of those pesky phone calls asking you questions or at least most of them. I don't mind doing so now as it helps me to find each and every code I write up and not only cite it but verify it. As we mostly see the same violations over and over, this process becomes less time consuming.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
Best response so far imho.
The request for code sections is most often coming from an angry recipient of my best work...as if they have a code book to reference. I’m not a savant. I offer to look up the sections for them when I have the time and get back to them.
I have the codes on my laptop so it’s usually not difficult to provide sections..... but I write a lot of corrections and don’t have the macbook with me or the ten minutes it takes to find 18 code sections. Give me a call at the office in a few days. I’m there from 8 to 9 and you just might catch me.
I have the codes on my laptop so it’s usually not difficult to provide sections..... but I write a lot of corrections and don’t have the macbook with me or the ten minutes it takes to find 18 code sections. Give me a call at the office in a few days. I’m there from 8 to 9 and you just might catch me.
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tmurray
SAWHORSE
We do not. When requested we are happy to provide not only the section number, but the section itself. Performing an inspection is different than issuing a ticket. We perform inspections to try to prevent a violation. Tickets are issued after a violation has occurred. I would certainly agree on using code references on plan reviews, but on inspections seems a little onerous on the inspector. Especially when a lot of what we do is catch things that have been forgotten or overlooked.
Sifu
SAWHORSE
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,801
Yes. For many reasons, not the least of which is that there are often many ways to comply with a requirement, and giving them the code section provides the requirement, not the remedy. Also, I always want them to look up the code (after they buy a find a book) for themselves, it gives them the opportunity to figure things out and leaves less room for the notion that I am just making stuff up. Finally, I have found that if I need to look something up to get an actual code citation, I learn from it. Many times I have been 100% sure I am right on an issue, but when I go looking for the code reference I will find additional information that might alter my comment.
steveray
SAWHORSE
(Add) 110.6.1 Notification of inspection results. Notification as to passage or failure, in whole
or in part, of any required inspection shall be made in writing by the building official or his duly
authorized representative and shall be left at the job site or delivered to the permit holder. It shall
be the duty of the permit holder to ascertain the results of required inspections.
When it is easy or contentious, we do, even though it is technically probably not required...I have found that it takes the wind out of a blowhards sails most of the time when you do....
or in part, of any required inspection shall be made in writing by the building official or his duly
authorized representative and shall be left at the job site or delivered to the permit holder. It shall
be the duty of the permit holder to ascertain the results of required inspections.
When it is easy or contentious, we do, even though it is technically probably not required...I have found that it takes the wind out of a blowhards sails most of the time when you do....
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
I'm in PA and worked for a few different 3rd party companies and the all want me to do it different. One wanted code sections for everything on plan reviews and inspections. One did not require it ever.
I don't think we would need the code sections for residential, the contractors usually don't have code books. I just call them and tell them what's wrong. But for a commercial plan review, where I write out a formal letter, I think they are helpful and also a copy of the section itself can be useful.
I don't think we would need the code sections for residential, the contractors usually don't have code books. I just call them and tell them what's wrong. But for a commercial plan review, where I write out a formal letter, I think they are helpful and also a copy of the section itself can be useful.
JCraver
Sawhorse
This should be two different questions, because it has two different answers.
I quote code sections on plan reviews, because it's my experience that architects and engineers don't know what I'm talking about when I don't. So I provide them with the sections where their plans are incorrect and/or inadequate, and sometimes that helps them fix it. Or not, and then I send them the comments again with the code sections bolded.
Field violations, during an inspection? Nobody has time for that. I write down what you did wrong, give you a copy, and it's yours to fix. If you don't understand the WHY, then I'm happy to see you in my office any time and show you the code book and the sections where you erred. Maybe 2% of contractors take me up on that.
I quote code sections on plan reviews, because it's my experience that architects and engineers don't know what I'm talking about when I don't. So I provide them with the sections where their plans are incorrect and/or inadequate, and sometimes that helps them fix it. Or not, and then I send them the comments again with the code sections bolded.
Field violations, during an inspection? Nobody has time for that. I write down what you did wrong, give you a copy, and it's yours to fix. If you don't understand the WHY, then I'm happy to see you in my office any time and show you the code book and the sections where you erred. Maybe 2% of contractors take me up on that.
JCarver has it down,
I provide a plan review letter with code references on commercial projects.
Residential plan review usually has a few issues or questions depending on the lot elevations and I'll write them on their set of plans.
Inspection, on occasion I will provide the code section on the inspection report especially when there's a new code to enforce. It takes some a little while to adapt and the code section reference makes it look like I know what I'm enforcing. In general I think the code section reference is good, but like others have said, very time consuming, and I have other duties.
The code is sometimes tricky with words like "shall" and "generally accepted engineering practice" and "references to testing standards" and other requirements. Not to mention that some codes roll over into other codes like the IFC but may have a different code section and number. Example: IRC R319.1 Site address and IFC 505.1 Address identification, which code do you provide for no address on a final inspection? And then there's the muni-code additions and omissions to cite.
Also if your listing the code violations on your inspection reports, that means your having to go back to do a re-inspection, are your charging them for that additional inspection?
I provide a plan review letter with code references on commercial projects.
Residential plan review usually has a few issues or questions depending on the lot elevations and I'll write them on their set of plans.
Inspection, on occasion I will provide the code section on the inspection report especially when there's a new code to enforce. It takes some a little while to adapt and the code section reference makes it look like I know what I'm enforcing. In general I think the code section reference is good, but like others have said, very time consuming, and I have other duties.
The code is sometimes tricky with words like "shall" and "generally accepted engineering practice" and "references to testing standards" and other requirements. Not to mention that some codes roll over into other codes like the IFC but may have a different code section and number. Example: IRC R319.1 Site address and IFC 505.1 Address identification, which code do you provide for no address on a final inspection? And then there's the muni-code additions and omissions to cite.
Also if your listing the code violations on your inspection reports, that means your having to go back to do a re-inspection, are your charging them for that additional inspection?
mark handler
SAWHORSE
When questioned/challenged, yes.
TheCommish
Registered User
If a formal notice of violation yes, if asked yes, most of the time no.
When a decent explanation or request of professional to another the cite is not needed, if you want me to look it up please get out your code book licensed contractors are required to have in their possession, oh you don't have one or the correct one this is not a confidence builder on my part.
When a decent explanation or request of professional to another the cite is not needed, if you want me to look it up please get out your code book licensed contractors are required to have in their possession, oh you don't have one or the correct one this is not a confidence builder on my part.
I see plenty of bogus corrections. I hardly ever hear people complaining about the bogus corrections.
I'm sure some inspectors come across the same violation many times and probably have those section numbers memorized. If I was doing that job, I would make up a cheat sheet with the common violations that I find over time and reference each of those to the section number. Remember when we used to memorize dozen of telephone number because we called them often? Now that your phone does that for you, what are you using your memory for? 
Sifu
SAWHORSE
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,801
Back when we had to remember numbers we could because our brains didn't have to worry about where the phone was since it had a handy string attached to it. Now, I can't remember any numbers but I use my memory to figure out where I left my phone. One big trade off!I'm sure some inspectors come across the same violation many times and probably have those section numbers memorized. If I was doing that job, I would make up a cheat sheet with the common violations that I find over time and reference each of those to the section number. Remember when we used to memorize dozen of telephone number because we called them often? Now that your phone does that for you, what are you using your memory for?
chris kennedy
Sawhorse
what are you using your memory for?
Trying to remember what I had for dinner last night?
I have worked for the same company for 15 years and I don't know the office number off the top off my head.
As an installer I don't get many correction notices but am asked to decipher them often at the office as they all have the section listed, SOP around here.
fatboy
Administrator
When asked, I am happy to provide.