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Exisiting fire hose cabinet still required

syarn

syarn

Silver Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
251
Location
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
Existing building. First built in 1876.

7 stories with mezzanine within 2nd floor level.

Floors 1 thru 5 are 49800 sf per floor.

The mezzanine is 22200 sf.

The 6 & 7 th floors are 8500 sf each.

The occupancy is a museum (A3).

198'x282' footprint. 3 sides have 60' clear frontage. 1 side is up against another building.

There is a fire alarm system with pull stations, smoke detectors.

however there is NOT a fire sprinkler thru out the building; just a limited sprinkler system in some areas.

the construction looks to be type I or II.

under 2009 international existing building code

in a 2400 sf exhibit area on the 3rd floor there is an existing fire hose cabinet which the museum has “camouflaged” as a “double hung window” with mirrored glass panes….to blend in with an exhibit.

is this fire hose cabinet still required by code?
 
Is this the only hose cabinet in the building

Is there::

Hose in it

1 1/2 inch connection

2 1/2 inch connection

Fire department connection
 
I am going to answer this from my side of the world, the insurance side and also as a firefighter. Does the fire department know of the location and will they use it ? Will it assist the FD in suppression of the fire? Is it connected to a FDC? Yea the code says it has to be maintained BUT at the end of the day how will it assist in the overall firefighting in the building? Now if you say you have them thoughtout the building that is a different story. But one connection buried in some remote section of the building that the FD will never use I do not see any advantage to maintaining it. Having done many museums I am more concerned about areas with no fire detection and sprinklers. Fire loading in public areas tend to be very low with not much contuninity of combustibles. During working hours they have security through out with early notification of a fire. We pay more claims for water damage then for fire losses in this class of business.
 
It may need to be maintained but we(fire fighters) will never use it. We test our equipment weekly and will not be dependent on something that may or may not help us save lives. These old fire hose cabinets almost give a false sense of security to residents.
 
Thx for replies.cda:1. Yes hose in it (see jpg). looks to be pin rack unit in cabinet maybe 50 ft of hose.2. 1-1/2" connection hose attached to (see jpg).3. Not a FDC IMO.insurance engineer:4. No I do not think the FD knows of the hose cabinet since maybe 2001.5. Yes IMO could help FD fight fire.

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Sounds like get with building and fire dept to see what direction they want to go

Maybe the building use/ configuration has changed over the years and was required at one time
 
I like the 12 year old inspection tag

Our fire department encourages the hoses to be removed from the old cabinets. They will not use them in a fire event and they do not want the general public to try and be a "hero" if there is an event.
 
4.6.5* Label. Each rack or storage facility for 1 1/2 in. (40 mm) or smaller hose shall be provided with a label that includes the wording “FIRE HOSE FOR USE BY TRAINED PERSONNEL” and operating instructions.

from nfpa 25::

6.1.7 Where approved by the authority having jurisdiction, existing hose shall be permitted to be removed and shall not be recorded as a deficiency.
 
We require ones attached to wet systems have the hose be removed, provide a brass female cap and flushed quarterly. We use (hotel packs with 250' of 1 - 3/4) for our own use if necessary. We would rather have trained persons using hose lines and novice untrained civilians evacuate promptly.
 
Depending on the situation, the fire department may attach their hose to the connection. Get into contact with the fire department. They will be the ones using it. It is possible that they have preplanned the building and know that it is there.

Anything that has to deal with the fire department needs to involve the fire department. A local hotel that was built 2 years ago has a 4 inch FDC. The fire department has 5 inch hose with no adaptor. The hotel got a letter from the fire chief explaining that they need to change the connection or supply the fire department with an adaptor. This could have been easily avoided during plan review if the fire department had been involved.
 
2009 IEBC 901.6 Inspection, testing and maintenance. Fire detection, alarm and extinguishing systems shall be maintained in an operative condition at all times, and shall be replaced or repaired where defective. Nonrequired fire protection systems and equipment shall be inspected, tested and maintained or removed. (emphasis added)

First determine if it is a 'required' system. If it is, maintain it per the original specifications. If it is NOT, then talk to the local AHJ about a permit to remove it. In the meantime, it is clearly a violation to conceal or obstruct visibility of any fire protection system components.
 
Is there code that would justify removing the existing hose system cabinet?
Click to expand...
NFPA 13, 2010 [8.17.5.1.1.1] Where the building is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinklersystem, the presence of 1 1/2 in. (38 mm) hose lines foruse by the building occupants shall not be required, subject to the approval ofthe authority having jurisdiction.
Click to expand...
Replace the sign with one indicating "Fire Department Hose Connection Only" the AHJ would mandate the flushing and maintenance requirements.
 
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