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Fire Shutters?

jpranch

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
1,976
Location
Gillette Wyoming
Here is what I have. Use group H-2. 3 hour fire area separation wall between use B and the H-2. Overhead 3 hour rated door that is 12' wide by 20' high. Question: Is this rated overhead door required to be interlocked with the fire alarm and sprinkler systems? That is: if alarm or sprinkler initiation happens this 3 hour door shall have automatic closing?
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

WOW! This wakes me up!

First, how can you have B and H2? (See 415.5)

Seems to me that 415.5 requires H2 as freestanding with no other occupancies.

Second, Table 705.4 seems to assign 4 hours to H2.

Need more info on building.

What is being stored? Must be BAAAD if H2

How big the building?

What does floor plan look like?

12 x 20 = 240 square foot door?
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

If allowed are already there check 715 and NFPA 80

Rolling steel doors shall close automatically upon activation or release of a fusible link or detector.

I always think the building will burn down and the door will still be there in the open postion, but that is my opinion.
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

H-2 can be next to a "B" occupancy using separated mixed occupancy provisions. I'm presuming the 3-hour rating is because there are no sprinklers in the building - or its existing and they want to keep a "maximum loss" wall as is. I'm also presuming that the oversize door has the certificate required by 715.4.5.2.

Section 715.4.9 only says that the closing device needs to be "automatic" but that it must be "approved."

Technically a fusible link will work as an automatic closing assembly. However, I've never agreed to one of those in any of our projects. We'll always ask that it be tied into the fire alarm system with a local detection device in the vicinity. And, jp, since you get to "approve" the closing device, there's some degree of influence (not that any official on THIS board would ever stoop to using it maliciously, of course).
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

This facility is a separated mixed use of: H-2, H-3, H-3, B. Fully sprinklered. Type 1A construction.

Gene, I'm not going to allow fuseable links on this one. I'm going to require fire alarm interlock. With the door in the full open position I have about 20' in net clear opening height. If I get a floor level or low level point of origin fire by the time the heat plume melts the links and closes this door the space will be untentable. I sure as hell do not want to be stuffing body bags!
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

What happened to the good old days, where you could not have opeings in some fire walls????

Is that not in the I codes any where??
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

cda,

There are no openings allowed in party walls - but those are fire walls located on a lot line.

Besides, these are fire barriers I'll bet - not really fire walls.
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

jp - Yes, tie it into the alarm system.

rlm - Opening protectives in rated construction are typically permitted a slightly lower rating as the area immediately around the opening shouldn't contain any appreciable amount of 'fuel'. No storage permitted within set distance of doors, etc.

A three hour door in a four hour wall should not be a problem (personally have never seen a four hour door, only up to three).

True 'fire walls' create seperate buildings, so not necessarily a problem having them next to each other.

cda - Agree with Gene, 'party walls' have never been permitted to have openings (in the codes I have worked with), and they are specialized 'fire walls' that only occur on property lines. Fire walls (other than party walls) have always been permitted openings under specific circumstances, including the use of 'opening protectives' (rated assemblies).
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

Thanks they keep changing the name of things and hard to keep up
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

That's why we take in-service classes... :roll:

One of my first instructors was fond of pointing out that if you don't spend enough time with the books in your hands reading them that it isn't 'your code'. If it isn't 'your code', you have no right enforcing it. The only way to stay sharp in this business is to keep reading. If you think you've learned enough, read some more. You'll find something you didn't know or maybe missed the last time.

When NYS used to do sporadic updates of our old rogue code, I read every page as I put it in the book, compared it to what was coming out, and dutifully filed the old pages away for future reference.

Now, we get 9 new books every 3 (or so) years, a 'mandatory' update class of about 4 hours, a pat on the back and a 'here you go'. From there we get to (I'll let you guess ;) )

.........

That's right... READ SOME MORE! :eek:

Damn exciting profession we've chosen, EH boys and girls? :D
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

When I was lad, my favorite Uncle once told me "You learn something new every day." :)

To which I replied "Oh yeah? what'd I learn today" :p

"Did you know that Navajos lived in Hogans?" he asked. :?:

"No." said I. :roll:

"Well then, there you go!" said he. :D

Forty years later, that is STILL one of my favorite stories. :cool:

AND forty years later, I've still never forgotten that 'Navajos lived in Hogans'. :lol:

Wish I remembered everything that well... :roll:
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

Now if we'd had the internet forty years ago... ;)

Thanks for the link. I'll save it for my big move to the reservation... :lol:

That same Uncle was an interesting character. Married my Dads' sister, Aunt Stella. Dad and his siblings were 'thrifty' to say the least and not adventurous with hard-earned money. Straight to the bank and into a nice safe savings account. Uncle Harry liked a bit more 'risk' for a bigger return and got into stocks and bonds.

In the early 60s he asked my Dad and his brother if they wanted to join him in an investment he was making. New company had gone public and would bring a HUGE windfall in only a few years. They balked - too risky.

He didn't and purchased several original shares of a (then) small company named International Business Machines... need I write more?
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

Confirmed. The O.H. door in question is 3 hour rated. The contractor has agreed to interlock with the fire alarm system. I told them (for better or...) that I would not allow fuseable links.
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

JP,

You may want to consider asking for and witnessing a drop test of the fire door. If the tension on the spring holding the door open is not enough the door will not drop all the way or if too much will drop hard and bounce back up a few feet. The door contractor should simulate a fire, melt the link, trip the fire detection device, etc. and then sees what happens. Many times they will place chalk marks on the door spring to so they know how much tension they have placed on the spring. If you do not witness the test at least look for the chalk marks on the sides of the door at the top.At least you know they made some attempt to get the spring tension correct. Going forward the door should be dropped tested annually if you have any hope of the door closing when you have a fire. For an insurance point of view we do not consider the door a fire door unless they have documented monthly inspections of the door and annual drop tests of the door.

In the past I witnessed a drop test on 12 new fire doors on a project and EVERY door did not drop properly, or bounced open, because the door contractor did not set the spring properly on the doors.
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

jpranch said:
This facility is a separated mixed use of: H-2, H-3, H-3, B. Fully sprinklered. Type 1A construction. Gene, I'm not going to allow fuseable links on this one. I'm going to require fire alarm interlock. With the door in the full open position I have about 20' in net clear opening height. If I get a floor level or low level point of origin fire by the time the heat plume melts the links and closes this door the space will be untentable. I sure as hell do not want to be stuffing body bags!
JP, I think you will see that fuseable links will be included on all door assemblies and work great as either a primary or backup in the case of a fire alarm failure.
 
Re: Fire Shutters?

Fuseable links, especially on large/tall overhead doors aren't effective for the same reason the door can have lower rating than the wall... Little or no fuel near the opening. Also the primary reason they're not permitted on 'exit' doors and side-hinged fire doors. :eek:

NYS all-but-eliminated their use some time ago. You didn't think the 'Magnet Lobby' was responsible for hold-open devices tied to the alarm system, did you? :D
 
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