• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

fully sprinklered school with non sprinklered outdoor storage space.

C

ccollings

Registered User
Joined
Sep 4, 2020
Messages
103
Location
Cleveland
I have a large high school project - Use Group E. Construction Type II-B
the overall area is 120,000 square feet and divided into 3 sections with 2 hour fire wall separations. (central area and 2 classroom wings)
attached to one wing is a 3,000 sf unconditioned storage space (Use Group S-1) only accessed from outside.
all of the conditioned space is fully sprinkled. the unconditioned storage space is not sprinklered.
I am classifying the portion of the building where the storage space is as Separated Mixed Use with a 2 hour barrier per IBC 508.4 (using the NS requirement) between the sprinklered and non sprinklered space

My sprinkler engineer does not think i can use "S1" for allowable area unless the storage area is also sprinklered. My interpretation is because I'm classifying that portion of the building as Separated Mixed Use (per 508.4) with a 2 hour fire barrier; that each area is calculated separately and the S1 allowable area number can still be used for the sprinklered portion and the NS area number for the non sprinklered portion.
 
Are the walls fire barriers or fire walls?

Big difference between the two. Ultimately, cannot answer your question until you clarify which wall assembly type you have.
 
Ty J. said:
Are the walls fire barriers or fire walls?

Big difference between the two. Ultimately, cannot answer your question until you clarify which wall assembly type you have.
Click to expand...
The walls separating the different wings of the building are Fire Walls and the wall separating the sprinkled area from the unsprinklered area is a Fire Barrier. (IBC 508.4.4.1)
 
If it is not a firewall, it gets sprinklered.....

[F] 903.2.9 Group S-1. An automatic sprinkler system
shall be provided throughout all buildings containing a
Group S-1 occupancy where one of the following conditions
exists:

[F] 903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 sprinkler systems. Where the
provisions of this code require that a building or portion
thereof be equipped throughout with an automatic
sprinkler system in accordance with this section, sprinklers
shall be installed throughout in accordance with
NFPA 13 except as provided in Sections 903.3.1.1.1
and 903.3.1.1.2.
 
Read the footnotes for Table 506.2 where it describes the conditions for S1: "Buildings a maximum of one story above grade plane equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1."

Building must be sprinklered throughout and not just a portion of it to get the increased area. If the sprinklered portion is separated from the rest of the building with fire walls to create its own building, then you could use it for that portion only.
 
ccollings said:
The walls separating the different wings of the building are Fire Walls and the wall separating the sprinkled area from the unsprinklered area is a Fire Barrier. (IBC 508.4.4.1)
Click to expand...
Then as Steveray pointed out, it gets sprinkled.

Oh, and both the fire walls and the fire barrier will need to be 3-hrs (Table 706.4 and Table 707.3.10).
 
so the consensus is that i need a fire wall instead of a fire barrier?
my interpretation is that by using a fire barrier in accordance with 508.4, that building is separated into separate fire areas. that seems to me to comply with 903.2.3 for use group E and 903.2.9 Group S-1. Per 903.2.3 Group E exception 1, all group E fire areas greater than 12,000 sf are fully sprinklered. Per 903.2.9 Group S-1 exception 1, the Group E fire area is less than 12,000 s.f.
as far as the rating of the wall, I would argue that 707.3.9 overrides table 707.3.10.
 
my ahj you w
ccollings said:
so the consensus is that i need a fire wall instead of a fire barrier?
my interpretation is that by using a fire barrier in accordance with 508.4, that building is separated into separate fire areas. that seems to me to comply with 903.2.3 for use group E and 903.2.9 Group S-1. Per 903.2.3 Group E exception 1, all group E fire areas greater than 12,000 sf are fully sprinklered. Per 903.2.9 Group S-1 exception 1, the Group E fire area is less than 12,000 s.f.
as far as the rating of the wall, I would argue that 707.3.9 overrides table 707.3.10.
Click to expand...


My ahj you would sprinkle it, fire wall or not
 
Lets try this again....

F] 903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 sprinkler systems. Where the provisions of this code require that a building or portion thereof be equipped throughout with an automatic
sprinkler system in accordance with this section, sprinklers shall be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13 except as provided in Sections 903.3.1.1.1
and 903.3.1.1.2.
 
Don't fight it, what are you saving? Storage areas are often causes of fire depending on what types of classrooms they are adjacent to.
 
at first, i didn't agree with the other interpretations but now i do and the storage space will be sprinklered. the added cost is not a lot for the scope of the project. the storage area is being designed to be converted to interior space in the future and the sprinkler system is already sized to accommodate it.. may revisit this in the future if they need to cut costs, but my guess is that if that happens the storage area will go away entirely so it'll be a non issue.
 
ccollings said:
at first, i didn't agree with the other interpretations but now i do and the storage space will be sprinklered. the added cost is not a lot for the scope of the project. the storage area is being designed to be converted to interior space in the future and the sprinkler system is already sized to accommodate it.. may revisit this in the future if they need to cut costs, but my guess is that if that happens the storage area will go away entirely so it'll be a non issue.
Click to expand...
What about the fire-resistance rating? Are you going to bring it up to 3-hours?
classicT said:
Oh, and both the fire walls and the fire barrier will need to be 3-hrs (Table 706.4 and Table 707.3.10).
Click to expand...
 
now that the storage space is sprinklered per table 508.4 (and 707.3.9) the dividing wall is 1 hour.
the fire walls are 2 hour per table 706.4 exception a. (type II construction)
 
ccollings said:
now that the storage space is sprinklered per table 508.4 (and 707.3.9) the dividing wall is 1 hour.
the fire walls are 2 hour per table 706.4 exception a. (type II construction)
Click to expand...
How so?

The exception (footnote 'a') that permits you to lower from 3-hr to 2-hr does not apply to S-1. See Table 706.4 below.

1601572874987.png
 
classicT said:
How so?

The exception (footnote 'a') that permits you to lower from 3-hr to 2-hr does not apply to S-1. See Table 706.4 below.

View attachment 7014
Click to expand...
706.1 General
Each portion of a building separated by one or more fire walls that comply with the provisions of this section shall be considered a separate building. The extent and location of such fire walls shall provide a complete separation. Where a fire wall separates occupancies that are required to be separated by a fire barrier wall, the most restrictive requirements of each separation shall apply.
 
cda said:
It is still an “E”. “E”
Click to expand...
How? Why? What is your justification?

If it is unconditioned storage, use and occupancy classification per Ch. 3 is S-1.

508.1 General
Each portion of a building shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. Where a building contains more than one occupancy group, the building or portion thereof shall comply with the applicable provisions of Section 508.2, 508.3 or 508.4, or a combination of these sections.
Exceptions:
  1. Occupancies separated in accordance with Section 510.
  2. Where required by Table 415.6.2, areas of Group H-1, H-2 and H-3 occupancies shall be located in a detached building or structure.
  3. Uses within live/work units, complying with Section 419, are not considered separate occupancies.
ccollings said:
i have no idea what that means.
Click to expand...
I do not think he understands that the space in question is for storage and shall be classified as such.
 
in the wing where it is located the storage space is greater than 10% of the floor area so it is not an accessory use.
 
cda said:
A school is an E!!!


The storage room is an E

The office area is an E

You do not subdivide, for most code requirements
Click to expand...
YES YOU DO!!

classicT said:
508.1 General
Each portion of a building shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. Where a building contains more than one occupancy group, the building or portion thereof shall comply with the applicable provisions of Section 508.2, 508.3 or 508.4, or a combination of these sections.
Exceptions:
  1. Occupancies separated in accordance with Section 510.
  2. Where required by Table 415.6.2, areas of Group H-1, H-2 and H-3 occupancies shall be located in a detached building or structure.
  3. Uses within live/work units, complying with Section 419, are not considered separate occupancies.
Click to expand...
 
ADAguy said:
Don't fight it, what are you saving? Storage areas are often causes of fire depending on what types of classrooms they are adjacent to.
Click to expand...
Then OP stated it was unconditioned space which means it will require a dry system which will cost a lot more than just extending the wet system.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top