Heat to a covered deck

[Paradox]

We are under the 06 IECC. Do we allow gas lines out to multiple exterior heaters under a roof with no insulation or walls?

 

[pwood]

you can allow it , but it won't meet any energy calcs/budget that i am aware of. why not just hook the gas lines to a barbeque and cook some burgers and dogs with the wasted energy?

 

[globe trekker]

Paradox,

Welcome to the Building Codes Forum!

In this area, we have some restaurants that have outdoor seating,

and they have installed some natural gas heaters on some vertical

posts for the winter time dining outdoors. The heaters themselves

are installed away from anything combustible and they do not

meet any energy codes. While these heaters DO provide an amount

of heat, they function more as a "site decor / ambiance" type of

feature to entice potential customers to eat while they are freezing.



If possible, can you please elaborate some more on your particular

application?

.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

We are under the 06 IECC. Do we allow gas lines out to multiple exterior heaters under a roof with no insulation or walls?

I believe it is allowed as a conditional exemption 101.5.2, The following buildings, or portions thereof, separated from the remainder of the building by building thermal envelope assemblies complying with this code shall be exempt of the thermal envelope provisions of this code: exception 1, Those with a peak design rate of energy usage less than 3.4 Btu/h-ft2 (10.7 W/m2) or 1.0 watt/ft2 (10.7 W/m2) of floor area for space conditioning purposes.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

While these heaters DO provide an amountof heat, they function more as a "site decor / ambiance" type of

feature to entice potential customers to eat while they are freezing.



.

I think this helps turnover, and increases number of customers as they tend to eat faster and chit-chat less. It is good for the economy.

 

[globe trekker]

I think this helps turnover, and increases number of customers as they tend to eat faster and chit-chat less. :wink: It is good for the economy.

Papio, Most of the people I have observed dining outdoors during the winter

have been consuming "liquid heat" anyway. They seem to just like sitting by

one of the energy wasting appliances whilest they consume.

.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I wonder if you did an energy calculation on the 5-15 square feet they occupy if they meet the threshold for energy consumption. Beer and ziggy, might be okay, but scotch (2 Drams/hr) and stogie might be enough fuel input to push the 3.4 Btu/h-ft2 threshold for a standing person. I think further research is needed.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Except for a snow melt systems and swimming pools everything else the energy code addresses is with the building envolope. No walls no code requirements

 

[globe trekker]

If they sit down (and stay seated), they can consume a lot more before crossing

the energy threshold. That might be good for the restaurant business, but it

might be worse when they drive away. Can the restaurant business be legally

charged with contributing to the drunken state of a person? I don't know!

This discussion seems to have drifted off the main topic a bit.

.

 

[Paradox]

How do you rationalize 101.4 or 101.3? This is an increase in energy use. The restaurant is one who does projects back to back to avoid codes. At any rate this is a very large deck with a very permanent roof over it. If it follows the last project it will be enclosed next.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

How do you rationalize 101.4 or 101.3? This is an increase in energy use. The restaurant is one who does projects back to back to avoid codes. At any rate this is a very large deck with a very permanent roof over it. If it follows the last project it will be enclosed next.

You start with 101.3 to understand the intent. Then you go to 101.4 to assess which sections of the code and definitions are applicable to the project. Does the space meet the definition of conditioned space (e.g., 101.4.5)? Then you go to 101.5 to see if the space or building is required to comply.

When they put in the walls and condition the space to create a thermal envelope, then you can make them upgrade the roof to comply. How would you define the thermal envelope on an open air gazebo with radiant heaters? If you want to heat that commercial gazebo area with more than 3.4 btu/h-ft2, then the commercial provisions would be applicable.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

If they sit down (and stay seated), they can consume a lot more before crossingthe energy threshold. That might be good for the restaurant business, but it

might be worse when they drive away. Can the restaurant business be legally

charged with contributing to the drunken state of a person? I don't know!

This discussion seems to have drifted off the main topic a bit.

.

A restaurant can and should be charged, and often are if they continue to serve that patron. What I am more concerned with is of what proof and how many drinks does a person need to consume per hour to put them over the 3.4 btu/h-ft2 threshold. There could be a lot of people in non-compliance IECC out there. I meet need to require a letter of acknowledgement and operations that patrons in these outdoor heated areas are not consuming too much fuel and producing too much heat.

 

[Frank]

It is permitted--

Look at ASHRAE 90.1 2007 as referenced alt to IECC by IECC

"6.5.8.1 Heating Unenclosed Spaces Radiant heating shall be used when heating is required for unenclosed spaces."

 

[Paradox]

Thank You Frank! that is in the "04" 90.1 Which we can use with the "06" IECC. There is a definition for "building" in the IECC which includes "any structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use or occupancy".

 

[globe trekker]

Doesn't an AHJ have to adopt one or the other to use, ..either

the ASHRAE 90.1 or the IECC, but not both?

.

 

[Architect1281]

A better solution for a thinking establishment would be to stay "OUTSIDE" the code by

2006 and 09 so far as well

101.2.4 Systems and equipment outside the scope.

This code shall not apply to the following:

1. Portable LP-gas equipment of all types that is not connected to a fixed fuel piping system.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Paradox, one remaining question I do have, are you going to verify compliance with either the interior, or exterior lighting section?

 

[Paradox]

Electric is existing along with the roof. The owner is new to this location. I am assuming that the roll down clear plastic panels that we just found out he is installing do not represent enclosure as long as they are not an impediment to exiting off the deck?

 

[hlfireinspector]

Electric is existing along with the roof. The owner is new to this location. I am assuming that the roll down clear plastic panels that we just found out he is installing do not represent enclosure as long as they are not an impediment to exiting off the deck?

But they have to meet flame spead rating, be there done that, have t-shirt

 

[Paradox]

Appreciate that!

 

[JBI]

Globe Trekker, the IECCC has 90.1 listed as a referenced standard and allows it as a compliance alternative.

Arch1281, "1. Portable LP-gas equipment of all types that is not connected to a fixed fuel piping system" The OP was about running gas lines to the units.

Paradox, View the plastic the same way you would drapes or curtains.

 

[Paradox]

JBI, I do appreciate your explanation to Globe Trekker and I concur. It was not my intent to be rude.