Guest
So they decided that the floor was too flexible and fixed it with a 4"x6". I guess they figured the added weight might make a difference.
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jpranch
Platinum Member
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Burn baby burn.
Burn baby burn.
Inspector 102
Silver Member
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
From a firefighter view, these products seem to have an accellerated burn rate causing a lot of concern for interior fire attacks. Our crews have been beaten silly with warnings about these products. If homeowners would cover all these with 5/8" type X gyp board, it would help, but the unfinished basement will never go away. I understand the convenience from the contractor side, but concern for my crews comes first. Same with SIP walls and ICF, see issues with both from fire side. Just my 2cents worth.
From a firefighter view, these products seem to have an accellerated burn rate causing a lot of concern for interior fire attacks. Our crews have been beaten silly with warnings about these products. If homeowners would cover all these with 5/8" type X gyp board, it would help, but the unfinished basement will never go away. I understand the convenience from the contractor side, but concern for my crews comes first. Same with SIP walls and ICF, see issues with both from fire side. Just my 2cents worth.
brat
Bronze Member
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
It's interesting how regional some products are. I don't disagree that I-joists probably burn quicjly, but they have been extremely common around here for almost twenty years. In fact now it is very rare to see dimensional lumber in a floor system.
I've never heard any of the fire folks complain about them.
It's interesting how regional some products are. I don't disagree that I-joists probably burn quicjly, but they have been extremely common around here for almost twenty years. In fact now it is very rare to see dimensional lumber in a floor system.
I've never heard any of the fire folks complain about them.
conarb
Registered User
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Is Baltimore over? What happened with the fireproofing of lightweight construction? I heard the firefighters ran off without voting again, can that really be true?
Is Baltimore over? What happened with the fireproofing of lightweight construction? I heard the firefighters ran off without voting again, can that really be true?
PORTEOUS
Bronze Member
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
I can say that they are easy to frame with, but I have always questioned the longevity of these joists. I have done re-models on 50+ yr old homes where the rough-cut 2x12's are rotted through, I can't imagine what these will look like in that same amount of time, I do know they have been around since the early 70's. I guess time will tell.
I can say that they are easy to frame with, but I have always questioned the longevity of these joists. I have done re-models on 50+ yr old homes where the rough-cut 2x12's are rotted through, I can't imagine what these will look like in that same amount of time, I do know they have been around since the early 70's. I guess time will tell.
jpranch
Platinum Member
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
CA, Yes they ran off and off and off.................. Light weight construction has not yet been fully addressed. How many will die before we deal with this?
CA, Yes they ran off and off and off.................. Light weight construction has not yet been fully addressed. How many will die before we deal with this?
timnetzley
Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 7
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Unfortunately, as with anything it seems, some have to die before the politics at play will even allow consideration of alternatives. Then they'll make it more expensive because they can and the alternative will then be the requirement. Am I being negative?
Tim
“Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.” -Albert Einstein
Unfortunately, as with anything it seems, some have to die before the politics at play will even allow consideration of alternatives. Then they'll make it more expensive because they can and the alternative will then be the requirement. Am I being negative?
Tim
“Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.” -Albert Einstein
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Tiger,
Where are the "Truss Design Drawings"?
Or are they are present; and, is it, that know one knows how to read them?
Truss installation requirements are not a catch as catch can or modifiable installation. Every nail, hanger, joist, attachment is required to be in accordance with the drawings; and specified on the drawings.
Their should be no question of what works or what goes where!
Uncle Bob
Tiger,
Where are the "Truss Design Drawings"?
Or are they are present; and, is it, that know one knows how to read them?
Truss installation requirements are not a catch as catch can or modifiable installation. Every nail, hanger, joist, attachment is required to be in accordance with the drawings; and specified on the drawings.
Their should be no question of what works or what goes where!
Uncle Bob
incognito
Silver Member
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Uncle Bob,
Exactly where in the photo are the trusses you are referring to?
Having framed with both dimensional lumber and wood I-joists, I am of the opinion that the wood I-joists are a far superior product when compared to dimensional lumber. They span farther and do not shrink like dimensional lumber does over time.
Uncle Bob,
Exactly where in the photo are the trusses you are referring to?
Having framed with both dimensional lumber and wood I-joists, I am of the opinion that the wood I-joists are a far superior product when compared to dimensional lumber. They span farther and do not shrink like dimensional lumber does over time.
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Incognito,
"Exactly where in the photo are the trusses you are referring to? "
I'm not refering to the photo; I'm refering to the question of whether someone modified the trusses. If you have installed trusses per code; you know that "Truss Design Drawings" are required. If there is a question about the installation (not per drawings and/or specifications); then, the Truss Design Engineer should have been contacted; that is provided the trusses were not installed per the "Truss Design Drawings".
Too many inspectors are being sent out to inspect; and are approving installations; without knowing what they are looking at. The training is available; but the AHJ either doesn't have the financing or the inclination to give a damn.
Uncle Bob
Incognito,
"Exactly where in the photo are the trusses you are referring to? "
I'm not refering to the photo; I'm refering to the question of whether someone modified the trusses. If you have installed trusses per code; you know that "Truss Design Drawings" are required. If there is a question about the installation (not per drawings and/or specifications); then, the Truss Design Engineer should have been contacted; that is provided the trusses were not installed per the "Truss Design Drawings".
Too many inspectors are being sent out to inspect; and are approving installations; without knowing what they are looking at. The training is available; but the AHJ either doesn't have the financing or the inclination to give a damn.
Uncle Bob
conarb
Registered User
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Uncle Bob:
I've never used that crap so I don't know, but since I Joists are engineered wood products don't the installers have to present the inspector with drawings just like trusses, showing squash blocks, types of hangers, reinforcement, etc.? All I know is if they are burned or get wet they collapse, this is going to be fun in those areas with sprinkler mandates, can you imagine what's going to happen to those things when sprinklers flood the floors? The manufacturers say they can't even be laid on wet ground or allowed out in the rain.
There was also the case where the whole family got sick from formaldehyde when the HVAC contractor used them for a cold air return. Be fun to create cold air returns with I Joists wrapped in Chinese drywall.
Uncle Bob:
I've never used that crap so I don't know, but since I Joists are engineered wood products don't the installers have to present the inspector with drawings just like trusses, showing squash blocks, types of hangers, reinforcement, etc.? All I know is if they are burned or get wet they collapse, this is going to be fun in those areas with sprinkler mandates, can you imagine what's going to happen to those things when sprinklers flood the floors? The manufacturers say they can't even be laid on wet ground or allowed out in the rain.
There was also the case where the whole family got sick from formaldehyde when the HVAC contractor used them for a cold air return. Be fun to create cold air returns with I Joists wrapped in Chinese drywall.
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Uncle Bob, I am also having trouble identifing where the trusses are. And there is no previous comment about trusses--at least not in this thread.
conarb,
I have seen wood I-joists get pretty wet with no ill effects. I think the manufacturers "load the boat" with disclaimers. Nothing new about that. Typically they do not come with a detail plan for installation since the manufacturers produce an installation manual regarding proper installation techniques and requirements.
Incognito,
I would agree that wood I-joists are a better product than 2x material. It gets old having to order out twice the material you need so you can sort the crooked crap out. I would guess that 90% of the new homes in this area utilize them wood I-joists. Probably the dominate product for the last 10-15 years.
Uncle Bob, I am also having trouble identifing where the trusses are. And there is no previous comment about trusses--at least not in this thread.
conarb,
I have seen wood I-joists get pretty wet with no ill effects. I think the manufacturers "load the boat" with disclaimers. Nothing new about that. Typically they do not come with a detail plan for installation since the manufacturers produce an installation manual regarding proper installation techniques and requirements.
Incognito,
I would agree that wood I-joists are a better product than 2x material. It gets old having to order out twice the material you need so you can sort the crooked crap out. I would guess that 90% of the new homes in this area utilize them wood I-joists. Probably the dominate product for the last 10-15 years.
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
M&M
I'am not sure if your area is different or the industry has changed, but I overseen the construction of over 150 trac homes were we used I-joist on 19.2 centers, 3/4" OSB and the maufactured required products like LVL & rim material. The I-joist products required us to have a floor joist lay-out with a starting point, where doubles are to be placed, blocking and other important information. We worked we the I-joist suppliers designer submitting new plans and changing I-joist placements around chases, stools, showers and other issues. They prevented call backs like cracked sheetrock and floor joist replacement and increased some floor spans. As a building inspector I will request the floor lay-out plan with products being used. Recent changes have been that lumber yards are now doing the layouts with the manufactures software. There is a learning curve with these products and the picture shows a wood beam which tells me the plan has been altered by the framers or the lumberyard.
M&M
I'am not sure if your area is different or the industry has changed, but I overseen the construction of over 150 trac homes were we used I-joist on 19.2 centers, 3/4" OSB and the maufactured required products like LVL & rim material. The I-joist products required us to have a floor joist lay-out with a starting point, where doubles are to be placed, blocking and other important information. We worked we the I-joist suppliers designer submitting new plans and changing I-joist placements around chases, stools, showers and other issues. They prevented call backs like cracked sheetrock and floor joist replacement and increased some floor spans. As a building inspector I will request the floor lay-out plan with products being used. Recent changes have been that lumber yards are now doing the layouts with the manufactures software. There is a learning curve with these products and the picture shows a wood beam which tells me the plan has been altered by the framers or the lumberyard.
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Min&Max,
Forgive an old man, who has been away from the code books and job too long. I referenced trusses when I should have been talking about "Joist layout"; which should be on the job site at time of inspection.
Uncle Bob
Min&Max,
Forgive an old man, who has been away from the code books and job too long. I referenced trusses when I should have been talking about "Joist layout"; which should be on the job site at time of inspection.
Uncle Bob
conarb
Registered User
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
So how does the inspector know where the squash blocks are to be placed? Those I Joists "squash" without squash blocks.M&M said:
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
ConArb,
Where there are no qualified/knowledgeable inspectors available; one way to help insure that engineered wood products; such as I-Joists, LVLs, etc. are installed correctly; is for the Building Official to require (2006 IRC, Section R106) that a "qualified" registered design professional inspect, approve and submit a signed, sealed inspection report to the Department (2006 IRC, Section R109); prior to cover of installation.
In new home construction; this should be no problem. Most reliable joist manufacturers that I have delt with, have been happy to assist with inspections of the installation of their products; and, I have had the design engineer on site many times.
Personally, I would never accept the drawings of a "lumber yard" without the signature of a registered design professional; especially for remodeling jobs. If the lumber yards want to get into engineered lumber business they need to take the responsibility that goes with the territory.
Uncle Bob
ConArb,
Where there are no qualified/knowledgeable inspectors available; one way to help insure that engineered wood products; such as I-Joists, LVLs, etc. are installed correctly; is for the Building Official to require (2006 IRC, Section R106) that a "qualified" registered design professional inspect, approve and submit a signed, sealed inspection report to the Department (2006 IRC, Section R109); prior to cover of installation.
In new home construction; this should be no problem. Most reliable joist manufacturers that I have delt with, have been happy to assist with inspections of the installation of their products; and, I have had the design engineer on site many times.
Personally, I would never accept the drawings of a "lumber yard" without the signature of a registered design professional; especially for remodeling jobs. If the lumber yards want to get into engineered lumber business they need to take the responsibility that goes with the territory.
Uncle Bob
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Uncle Bob,
Excellent point, lumberyards should be responsable for thier layout plans and materials specified if they are going to design the floor and roof systems! Who do you think designed that fir 4x6 in the picture?
Uncle Bob,
Excellent point, lumberyards should be responsable for thier layout plans and materials specified if they are going to design the floor and roof systems! Who do you think designed that fir 4x6 in the picture?
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Conarb,
An inspector that does not know where the squash blocks go should find a different job.
Uncle Bob,
Wood I-joists are a common framing material that have been in the industry for quite a while now. Any inspector who is still so unfamiliar with this product that he isn't comfortable looking at them should; 1). Educate himself on their use, or 2). Find a different career. Anyone who needs a detailed, stamped plan for the proper installation of wood I-joists is either an idiot or incompetent and should be relieved of their duties immediately. I would not tolerate such ignorance on the part of one of my staff.
Conarb,
An inspector that does not know where the squash blocks go should find a different job.
Uncle Bob,
Wood I-joists are a common framing material that have been in the industry for quite a while now. Any inspector who is still so unfamiliar with this product that he isn't comfortable looking at them should; 1). Educate himself on their use, or 2). Find a different career. Anyone who needs a detailed, stamped plan for the proper installation of wood I-joists is either an idiot or incompetent and should be relieved of their duties immediately. I would not tolerate such ignorance on the part of one of my staff.
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Min&Max,
Since you haven't put on your profile what State you are in or what you do for a living; it's hard to answer you. From your last statement I can only assume that it is not Building Official.
Uncle Bob
Min&Max,
Since you haven't put on your profile what State you are in or what you do for a living; it's hard to answer you. From your last statement I can only assume that it is not Building Official.
Uncle Bob
JBI
Registered User
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
M&M - "Anyone who needs a detailed, stamped plan for the proper installation of wood I-joists is either an idiot or incompetent and should be relieved of their duties immediately. I would not tolerate such ignorance on the part of one of my staff." :roll:
The Code requires the plan to be submitted. Anyone who would approve the house plans without details and a seal/signature is 'either an idiot or incompetent and should be relieved of their duties immediately. I would not tolerate such ignorance on the part of one of my staff'!
They don't call them 'ENGINEERED WOOD PRODUCTS' for nothing.
Properly installed and maintained, I-joists are a good product. I don't believe they are 'superior' to dimensional lumber... just another alternative.
If the Codes spent less time worrying about 'economics' and more time focusing on 'fire safety' the I-joists would perform admirably in a fire event as they would be protected by GWB on the undersides.
And for the record M&M, if you're ordering twice the material to pick out the bad stuff, maybe you need a better supplier... :roll:
M&M - "Anyone who needs a detailed, stamped plan for the proper installation of wood I-joists is either an idiot or incompetent and should be relieved of their duties immediately. I would not tolerate such ignorance on the part of one of my staff." :roll:
The Code requires the plan to be submitted. Anyone who would approve the house plans without details and a seal/signature is 'either an idiot or incompetent and should be relieved of their duties immediately. I would not tolerate such ignorance on the part of one of my staff'!
They don't call them 'ENGINEERED WOOD PRODUCTS' for nothing.
Properly installed and maintained, I-joists are a good product. I don't believe they are 'superior' to dimensional lumber... just another alternative.
If the Codes spent less time worrying about 'economics' and more time focusing on 'fire safety' the I-joists would perform admirably in a fire event as they would be protected by GWB on the undersides.
And for the record M&M, if you're ordering twice the material to pick out the bad stuff, maybe you need a better supplier... :roll:
Mac
Gold Member
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
March 7, 2002 two of our local firefighters died when the burning floor of a house built using I-joists collapsed under them. I drive by that place every day and think of them.
Every I-joist floor and truss roof system that I approve is accompanied by engineered drawings indicating all the pertinent information needed by the installers.
Or they don't get built.
Just sayin'...
March 7, 2002 two of our local firefighters died when the burning floor of a house built using I-joists collapsed under them. I drive by that place every day and think of them.
Every I-joist floor and truss roof system that I approve is accompanied by engineered drawings indicating all the pertinent information needed by the installers.
Or they don't get built.
Just sayin'...
Re: I don't like I-joists either.
Trusjoist has information on fire testing @ 1-800-628-3997 or http://www.trusjoist.com/fire for those of you that need additional information on thier I-joist.
Trusjoist has information on fire testing @ 1-800-628-3997 or http://www.trusjoist.com/fire for those of you that need additional information on thier I-joist.