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Iron pipe sleeve

Discussion in 'Fuel Gas Codes' started by Sifu, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. Sifu

    Sifu Gold Member

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    06 code allowed u/g gas pipe installation to penetrate fdtn walls if sleeved. 09 code does not permit u/g installation, sleeve or not,but does not directly require a sleeve for pipe penetration a foundation wall (at least that I can find). All I can find is a requirement for coatings and wrappings and a statement that "where" a sleeve is installed. I have always required a sleeve for metalic pipe through a foundation but am now questioning that since I can't find a direct requirement for it. Any thoughts? See 09 IFGC 404.4 and 404.7 and IRC g2415.4 and g2415.7
     
  2. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    Gas pipe can't be buried under a building unless it is sleeved for it's entire length and vented to the exterior. Sleeving through a foundation is required for any type of pipe. Code sections are there but I don't have the time to find them right now.
     
  3. codeworks

    codeworks Gold Member

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    section 404.11 IFGC gets very specific about gas piping underground under buildings.
     
  4. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    = % &



    Looks like the ability to have an underground penetration of gas piping

    has gone away......See Section G2415.6 in the `12 IRC, and Section

    404.6 in the `12 IFGC......If the piping penetration is above ground

    thru a foundation wall, then it must be sleeved [ see Section G2415.9,

    `12 IRC & 404.9 in the `12 IFGC ].

    & % =
     
  5. Sifu

    Sifu Gold Member

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    Don't have the 12's in front of me but I'll look 'em up when I can. I am not talking about under a building, I am talking about above ground penetrations through a foundation wall. I can't find an 09 requirement that directly requires a sleeve.
     
  6. Gregg Harris

    Gregg Harris Gold Member

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    09 ifgc 404.6.1
     
  7. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    = = =



    Sifu,

    I will have to amend my previous posting and say that I

    too cannot find the requirement in the `09 IRC or IFGC

    or the `12 IRC or IFGC, to actually have a sleeve installed.

    Since the Section that **Greg Harris** listed in is regard

    to piping in the floors, I would not hang my hat on that

    particular section [ No offense to Mr. Harris mind you ].

    Maybe Section 404.2 [ `09 & `12 IFGC ] - 404.2 Piping

    in solid partitions and walls: "Concealed piping shall not be

    located in solid partitions and solid walls, unless installed in

    a chase or casing."

    Your thoughts ?



    & & &
     
  8. Sifu

    Sifu Gold Member

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    I looked at 12's and I simply can't find a direct reference to a sleeve requirement. 404.2 may be used since a foundation is a solid wall (stretch?) I also think the requirement in 404.7 (09) for coatings and wrappings can get us there. If you look further at 404.9.2 you see that coatings and wrappings should be approved and factory applied. Since I don't see a lot of wrought iron pipe with approved factory applied coatings I think I can go back to 404.7-"where piping is encased in a protective pipe sleeve"..... It seems the intent here is to have the pipe either wrapped or sleeved. Thats what I am coming up with here anyway.
     
  9. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Sawhorse

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    Why do you need a sleeve?

    I would think an adequate annular space is all that would be need for iron pipe
     
  10. Gregg Harris

    Gregg Harris Gold Member

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    Sorry about the previous post 404.7 is correct for through the wall, a sleeve is no longer required since it is above grade, but if used must be sealed
     
  11. Sifu

    Sifu Gold Member

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    So if a wrought iron pipe is installed through a wall without a sleeve what wrappings or coatings are you seeing? Code says they must be factory applied.
     
  12. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    A sleeve is used if there are forms that will be filled with concrete...otherwise a hole can be bored. Iron gas pipe that isn't buried is not required to be coated or wrapped.
     
  13. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    ~ ~ ~ ~



    Oh contrare monfrere!.....See Section G2415.8 in the `06 IRC &

    Section 404.8 in the `06 IFGC. :cool:

    ~ ~ ~ ~
     
  14. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    I don't enforce either of those codes....so I don't know what's there
     
  15. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    If you require a sleeve how do you install in when the sleeve was not installed prior to pouring concrete?

    Suggest that the typical reasons to require space around the pipe or conduit are to allow installation of something to protect the pipe or conduit from contact with concrete, to protect the pipe or conduit from differential settlement between the building and soil, or to give some installation tolerance of the pipe or conduit.

    I think that the tolerance reason is the only one that stands up to logic but why should the code not take the position that getting the penetration in the right place is the contractors problem.
     
  16. Gregg Harris

    Gregg Harris Gold Member

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    Your first two choices where actually the correct reasons, but since you now have above grade penetration required the corrosion factor is still there.
     
  17. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    If you are suggesting the gap is to allow for differential settlement then you would want to specify a gap on either the top or bottom of the pipe depending on what settles more the building or the adjacent ground. Depending on site conditions the answer may be different. For example if the building is founded on stiff rock but surrounded by backfill not fully compacted the soil may settle more.

    In my experience nobody asks the engineer about this and the sleeve details do not in general detail clearances so I suspect that the gap is not effective in mitigating effects of differential displacement.

    Another reason why I doubt that differential settlement is the reason, is that the space between the pipe and the sleeve is filled with stuff stiff enough to prevent movement.

    If there was say a half inch of differential movement between the pipe and the sleeve I would expect the waterproofing between the pipe and the concrete to fail thus resulting in water leaks.

    The reality is that underground pipes regularly accommodate differential soil movement without a problem even when there is no building. Sure sometimes it is a problem but then you would probably address the problem differently.

    The point is that there are a lot of situations where no movement can occur for one reason or another but we do not see the predicted bad outcomes.
     

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