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Lock on an exit

K

kasa

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Messages
46
The place is an Assembly, capacity 300. The door is a fire exit, also it's the main entrance. The applicable code is 2006 IFC. Attached is what the hardware is on the door. Do you think this violates the fire code?

View attachment 2002

I think 2006 IFC 1008.1.8.3 is saying this kind of device is what is ok (meaning "key-operated locking devices from the egressside") and further, that 2006 IFC 1008.1.9 says it can only be this kind:View attachment 2003

Please give me your interpretation of this.View attachment 2002

View attachment 2003

/monthly_2013_10/Schlage_Locks-Deadbolt_with_thumb_turn.jpg.e7c86d19de636f2c03af0966d68734e2.jpg

/monthly_2013_10/double.jpg.c124f21018410e3bfd2f482534c448c5.jpg
 
choice 2 close to correct, it needs to have a built in indicator that the device is unlocked, with the required sign that the say "this door must remain unlocked when the building is occupied"
 
I agree too...the lock needs to be key-operated so that only an authorized person can lock it. Max occupant load to use this on Assembly is 300, and this type of lock is only allowed on the main exterior door - not the other emergeny exits. You need the indicator, and also signage stating "This door to remain unlocked while the building is occupied."

http://idighardware.com/2009/10/restaurant-egress/
 
1008.1.8.3 Locks and latches. Locks and latches shall be permitted to prevent operation of doors where any of the following exists:

1. Places of detention or restraint.

2. In buildings in occupancy Group A having an occupant load of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in places of religious worship, the main exterior door or doors are permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking devices from the egress side provided:

2.1. The locking device is readily distinguishable as locked,

2.2. A readily visible durable sign is posted on the egress side on or adjacent to the door stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN BUILDING IS OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1 inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background,

2.3. The use of the key-operated locking device is revokable by the building official for due cause.

3. Where egress doors are used in pairs, approved automatic flush bolts shall be permitted to be used, provided that the door leaf having the automatic flush bolts has no doorknob or surface-mounted hardware.

4. Doors from individual dwelling or sleeping units of Group R occupancies having an occupant load of 10 or less are permitted to be equipped with a night latch, dead bolt or security chain, provided such devices are openable from the inside without the use of a key or tool.

1008.1.9 Panic and fire exit hardware. Where panic and fire exit hardware is installed, it shall comply with the following:

1. The actuating portion of the releasing device shall extend at least one-half of the door leaf width.

2. The maximum unlatching force shall not exceed 15 pounds (67 N).

Each door in a means of egress from a Group A or E occupancy having an occupant load of 50 or more and any Group H occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock unless it is panic hardware or fire exit hardware.

Exception: A main exit of a Group A occupancy in compliance with Section 1008.1.8.3, Item 2.

Electrical rooms with equipment rated 1,200 amperes or more and over 6 feet (1829 mm) wide that contain overcurrent devices, switching devices or control devices with exit access doors must be equipped with panic hardware and doors must swing in the direction of egress.

If balanced doors are used and panic hardware is required, the panic hardware shall be the push-pad type and the pad shall not extend more then one-half the width of the door measured from the latch side.
 
In 1008.1.9 It says "Where panic hardware and fire exit hardware is installed" and the argument is that this wording indicates that panic hardware is an option, not a requirement. Then they reason that the rest of the section only applies when there IS panic hardware. (I am not understanding but trying to relate the alternate viewpoint here and see if there is any agreement with that opinion out there?) This door in question doesn't have panic hardware, it has a fixed bar to push on instead of the glass (sorry hardware people, I don't know correct technical terms...), so without panic hardware, they're reasoning that 1008.1.9 does not apply, because it says "Where ... is installed". Has this question ever been posed to ICC people? I don't have the 2012 version... is it worded differently there?
 
I just saw the 2009 section of this same subject got all re-organized. Would this question be the reason for the re-organization? They no longer start with the requirements of the devices, but with a description of where it's required.... hmmm....

1008.1.10 Panic and fire exit hardware. Doors serving a Group H occupancy and doors serving rooms or spaces with an occupant load of 50 or more in a Group A or E occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock unless it is panic hardware or fire exit hardware.

Exception: A main exitof a Group A occupancy in compliance with Section 1008.1.9.3, Item 2.

Electrical rooms with equipment rated 1,200 amperes or more and over 6 feet (1829 mm) wide that contain overcurrent devices, switching devices or control devices

with exit or exit access doors shall be equipped with panic hardware or fire exithardware. The doors shall swing in the direction of egress travel.

1008.1.10.1 Installation. Where panic or fire exit hardware

is installed, it shall comply with the following:

1. Panic hardware shall be listed in accordance with UL 305;

2. Fire exit hardware shall be listed in accordance with UL 10C and UL 305;

3. The actuating portion of the releasing device shall extend at least one-halfofthe door leafwidth; and

4. The maximum unlatching force shall not exceed 15 pounds (67 N).

1008.1.10.2 Balanced doors. If balanced doors are used and panic hardware is required, the panic hardware shall be the push-pad type and the pad shall not extend more than one-half the width of the door measured from the latch side.
 
They're correct that any and all wording in Section 1008.1.9 applies only to panic hardware, and is therefore only required when panic hardware is required. The statement that it's a 300-occupant "A" group exempts them from the requirement for panic hardware according to 1008.1.8.3, but as others have said, they do still have to comply with all the other requirements of that section.

Now let me throw something else out there. 1008.1.8.3.2 only says the building is *permitted* to be equipped with key-operated locking devices, and that if they are, they must comply with the requirements of being readily distinguishable and that the "doors to remain unlocked" sign is posted. There's nothing in that section that prohibits locking devices that *don't* require a key from the egress side. I'm thinking here of deadbolts with a retract-only thumb turn. Now, the building owner may not want one of those, thinking it would be too easy for someone inside to unlock the premises after hours, if they'd found a way to stow away inside. But I've used them successfully on projects like park district restroom facilities and such, where it would be worse for someone to be inadvertently trapped in the building overnight than it would for the premises to be un-secured overnight.

Just a thought about one other possible direction.
 
the key locking device is primarily for security of the premises when unoccupied. If someone manages to break the glass storefront and get in anyway, the panic hardware equipped doors will provide easy entry/egress for the evil doers.

Having actually worked in a park part time, I never locked a door until after I checked the restroom for occupants (including opening every stall door).
 
cburgess, if you are saying the thumb-turn is OK on a main door in a place of assembly cap 300, then I disagree. 1008.1.8.3 tells you precisely what lock you CAN use, and considering it in combination with 1008.1.9, there are no other acceptable hardware allowed in this case. Your thumb turn isn't "panic hardware or fire exit hardware", so it's prohibited. It is a LOCK, and 1008.1.9 says any LOCKS on the doors in those occupancies has got to be panic hardware or fire exit hardware. The one exception that references back to 1008.1.8.3 is specific, a single way to have a lock on that door, you have to follow those rules about the exception, or go back to the 1008.1.9 which says nothing else is allowed. In a nutshell, my point of view is that a thumb-turn device is not panic hardware and not allowed because it isn't the type of hardware described in the exception.

Imagine a crowded bar, a guy walks in, flips the thumb-turn, walks to the other side, starts shooting, and everyone rushes the front door. There's a thumb turn *somewhere* on that door, bolting it shut. All the people push on the door, and now, if they can even find it to turn it since it's mounted in a random place, the pressure of that bolt on the frame of the door could be too much to even operate it anymore. I've read studies that say like 5 people pushing in a panic can cause over 700 pounds of pressure. A thumb turn is not designed or imo, capable of functioning in a panic, and doesn't belong anywhere near a door which could be needed in a panic.
 
Kasa

Not sure the dis

If you have a place of assembly

All exit doors except the main entrance are required panic hardware

The main entrance does not require panic hardware
 
kasa said:
cburgess, if you are saying the thumb-turn is OK on a main door in a place of assembly cap 300, then I disagree. 1008.1.8.3 tells you precisely what lock you CAN use, and considering it in combination with 1008.1.9, there are no other acceptable hardware allowed in this case. Your thumb turn isn't "panic hardware or fire exit hardware", so it's prohibited. It is a LOCK, and 1008.1.9 says any LOCKS on the doors in those occupancies has got to be panic hardware or fire exit hardware. The one exception that references back to 1008.1.8.3 is specific, a single way to have a lock on that door, you have to follow those rules about the exception, or go back to the 1008.1.9 which says nothing else is allowed. In a nutshell, my point of view is that a thumb-turn device is not panic hardware and not allowed because it isn't the type of hardware described in the exception. Imagine a crowded bar, a guy walks in, flips the thumb-turn, walks to the other side, starts shooting, and everyone rushes the front door. There's a thumb turn *somewhere* on that door, bolting it shut. All the people push on the door, and now, if they can even find it to turn it since it's mounted in a random place, the pressure of that bolt on the frame of the door could be too much to even operate it anymore. I've read studies that say like 5 people pushing in a panic can cause over 700 pounds of pressure. A thumb turn is not designed or imo, capable of functioning in a panic, and doesn't belong anywhere near a door which could be needed in a panic.
Click to expand...
I'm saying a retract-only thumbturn would be acceptable in this instance since panic hardware is not required if the conditions of 1008.1.8.3.2 are met, and assuming the required sign is posted, and the lock is readily distinguishable as locked, a retract-only thumbturn meets those requirements. A key is still required to lock the door - the thumbturn can't lock it, so in terms of limiting egress, it does nothing more than a lock that's operated entirely by key. It's identical other than allowing unlocking without a key, which,to me, makes it safer.

If this project came across my desk with a retract-only thumbturn, I'd approve it.
 
I'm getting some schooling here on deadbolts I guess... I didn't know there was one that retracts-only. I found a list here, http://archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/doors-windows/7-door-hardware-function.html, and after reading it really carefully, I *think* the one you mean is called a "classroom deadlock"? I've looked around and that seems to be the technical name for such a device by several different manufacturers. I think I'd seen a few of these types and thought the were just broken, didn't know it was a function of them! This name does make sense now that I think of it... my question above, and most of the places I see, are Assembly, but these two sections of code are dealing with Educational too. My pictures I found are not quite enough to illustrate my question then. The bottom line is, I don't want to ok a lock that can be flipped back to locked by a random person, like in the scenario I described. This retract-only, or classroom deadlock, would work then, to meet what I think is the intention of the code. A regular (aka non-classroom?) thumb-turn deadlock would still not work, imo.
 
kasa said:
I'm getting some schooling here on deadbolts I guess... I didn't know there was one that retracts-only. I found a list here, http://archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/doors-windows/7-door-hardware-function.html, and after reading it really carefully, I *think* the one you mean is called a "classroom deadlock"? I've looked around and that seems to be the technical name for such a device by several different manufacturers. I think I'd seen a few of these types and thought the were just broken, didn't know it was a function of them! This name does make sense now that I think of it... my question above, and most of the places I see, are Assembly, but these two sections of code are dealing with Educational too. My pictures I found are not quite enough to illustrate my question then. The bottom line is, I don't want to ok a lock that can be flipped back to locked by a random person, like in the scenario I described. This retract-only, or classroom deadlock, would work then, to meet what I think is the intention of the code. A regular (aka non-classroom?) thumb-turn deadlock would still not work, imo.
Click to expand...
Yes, the lock you are describing (thumbturn retracts bolt but does not project it) is a classroom deadbolt. I use them all the time on the main entrance to a multi-stall toilet.
 
Is the language in the '06 IFC different from the language in the '06 IBC? (I don't have a copy of the '06 IFC) Because, in the '06 IBC, Section 1008.1.9 states that, for Group A occupancy of 50 or more persons, doors in a means of egress shall not have a lock or latch unless it is panic hardware or fire exit hardware. (prior editions, it was 100 occupants)

Therefore, I would say that, unless you meet the conditions of having a key operated lock that is readily distinguishable as being locked/unlocked and the proper signage on the door, then any other lock/latch would have to be released by panic hardware - a thumb-turn lock would not be permissible.
 
IJHumberson said:
Is the language in the '06 IFC different from the language in the '06 IBC? (I don't have a copy of the '06 IFC) Because, in the '06 IBC, Section 1008.1.9 states that, for Group A occupancy of 50 or more persons, doors in a means of egress shall not have a lock or latch unless it is panic hardware or fire exit hardware. (prior editions, it was 100 occupants)Therefore, I would say that, unless you meet the conditions of having a key operated lock that is readily distinguishable as being locked/unlocked and the proper signage on the door, then any other lock/latch would have to be released by panic hardware - a thumb-turn lock would not be permissible.
Click to expand...
From 06

1008.1.8.3 Locks and latches.

2. In buildings in occupancy Group A having an occupant load of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in places of religious worship, the main exterior door or doors are permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking devices from the egress side provided:

2.1. The locking device is readily distinguishable as locked,

2.2. A readily visible durable sign is posted on the egress side on or adjacent to the door stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN BUILDING IS OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1 inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background,

2.3. The use of the key-operated locking device is revokable by the fire code official for due cause.

1008.1.9 Panic and fire exit hardware.

Where panic and fire exit hardware is installed, it shall comply with the following:

1. The actuating portion of the releasing device shall extend at least one-half of the door leaf width.

2. The maximum unlatching force shall not exceed 15 pounds (67 N).

Each door in a means of egress from a Group A or E occupancy having an occupant load of 50 or more and any Group H occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock unless it is panic hardware or fire exit hardware.

Exception: A main exit of a Group A occupancy in compliance with Section 1008.1.8.3, Item 2.
 
kasa said:
I'm getting some schooling here on deadbolts I guess... I didn't know there was one that retracts-only. I found a list here, http://archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/doors-windows/7-door-hardware-function.html, and after reading it really carefully, I *think* the one you mean is called a "classroom deadlock"? I've looked around and that seems to be the technical name for such a device by several different manufacturers. I think I'd seen a few of these types and thought the were just broken, didn't know it was a function of them! This name does make sense now that I think of it... my question above, and most of the places I see, are Assembly, but these two sections of code are dealing with Educational too. My pictures I found are not quite enough to illustrate my question then. The bottom line is, I don't want to ok a lock that can be flipped back to locked by a random person, like in the scenario I described. This retract-only, or classroom deadlock, would work then, to meet what I think is the intention of the code. A regular (aka non-classroom?) thumb-turn deadlock would still not work, imo.
Click to expand...
Does this say you cannot use thumb turn ????

1008.1.9.1 Hardware. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices on doors required to be accessible by Chapter 11 shall not require tight grasping, tight pinching or twisting of the wrist to operate.
 
Yeah, cda, I don't know how someone operates a thumb turn without some sorta-pinching and then twisting of the wrist. What I imagine is kind of awkward :D
 
cda said:
Does this say you cannot use thumb turn ????1008.1.9.1 Hardware. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices on doors required to be accessible by Chapter 11 shall not require tight grasping, tight pinching or twisting of the wrist to operate.
Click to expand...
I don't think so, any more than it would prohibit the small "paddle-like" toilet partition latches, a product designed specifically to meet accessibility codes. Unfortunately, in both cases, the degree of grasping required to operate either one depends to some extent on how well it, the door, the frame and the rest of the associated hardware are all installed.
 
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