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New one for me...............

Discussion in 'Accessibility' started by JPohling, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. JPohling

    JPohling Sawhorse

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    California Building Code - Just received a correction that I was not aware of. Evidently we do not have the most current pages in our code book so I have not been able to verify, but this is from Esgil which is a third party plan reviewing company and they are typically up to speed and by the book.

    I believe he referenced a change to Grab bars in 11B-609.3 Spacing. The correction is that no combination TP dispensers can be installed behind the grab bars because it interferes with providing the exact 1.5" spacing from grab bar to wall. he indicated that the DOJ made a ruling that all of these combo units would make this condition non compliant so they cannot be used.

    I have not seen the actual code language. This is another case of things just getting out of hand. This will provide a continuous source of violations for the attorneys to reference for litigation. I prefer the recessed combo units instead of a bunch of surface mounted dispensers, but looks like these can no longer be used.

    Have you good people heard anything about this?
     
  2. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    I have not heard of that change but it makes sense, and since it references a specific dimension it shoukd be easy to check.
     
  3. MtnArch

    MtnArch Sawhorse

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    We had a lunch 'n learn by a Bobrick rep a few weeks ago and he said that yes, this is true - and that Bobrick is going to be coming out with one that WILL comply.
     
  4. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    11B-609.3 Spacing. The space between the wall and the grab bar shall be 11/2 inches (38 mm). The space between the grab bar and projecting objects below and at the ends shall be 11/2 inches (38 mm) minimum. The space between the grab bar and projecting objects above shall be 12 inches (305 mm) minimum.

    I thought that the distance between a wall and a grab bar was a minimum 1.5" but apparently it shall be exactly 1.5".
     
  5. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    11B-604.7.1 Dispensers
    "...The outlet of the dispenser shall be below the grab bar, 19 inches minimum above the finish floor and shall not be located behind grab bars...."

    Bobrick Advisory Bulletin:
    TB-105 Use of Recessed Dispenser-Disposal Unit Behind Grab Bar
    http://www.bobrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/TB-105.pdf?__hstc=51871798.7be05e4ec00763c59c37a256c0df4ed0.1552936412578.1553004970162.1553006918769.4&__hssc=51871798.1.1553006918769&__hsfp=2021768341

    You need to shim the grab bars, 3/16-inch so that you meet the spacing requirements.

    grabbar.png
     
  6. JPohling

    JPohling Sawhorse

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    If you shim the bar then it is no longer exactly 1-1/2" on either side of the dispenser. non compliant. lawsuit.
    It has been getting ridiculous for a while, but this seems like the tipping point for me.
    It is not like the 1-1/2" is some magic number and 3/16" is going to make a difference. only to an attorney
     
  7. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    devo.png
    Shim the whole distance (excluding the area of the device).
     
    #7 mark handler, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
    jeffc, Paul Sweet and JPohling like this.
  8. MichaelM

    MichaelM Registered User

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    I am wondering how much can be a construction tolerance for absolute value (no minimum or maximum is provided) of required 1.5" clearance for grab bars. I am pretty sure industry standard can be very small for manufacturing these metal fixtures.

    11B-104.1.1 Construction and manufacturing tolerances
    All dimensions are subject to conventional industry tolerances except where the requirement is stated as a range with specific minimum and maximum end points.
     
  9. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

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    Ask Esgil how to measure exactly 1.5" spacing on wall finishes such as textured FRP panels, or tiles with grout joints.
     
  10. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    If you have a grab bar mounted on a 2x4 which is attached to the wall is the 2x4 part of the wall?
     
  11. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    That works for me.
     
  12. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    Maybe a hard plastic ball exsctly 1.5" dia?
     
  13. JPohling

    JPohling Sawhorse

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    This is not an Esgil only correction. It is now in the code and coming soon to a jurisdiction near you.................
    I cannot retire fast enough.
    Oh, check any one piece "L" shaped grab bar and I guarantee it will not comply with correct space and or length
     
  14. JPohling

    JPohling Sawhorse

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    sure , but does not address the dispenser
     
  15. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    will the 16 to 18 inches to the center of the toilet be measured from the 2X4 or the drywall in this case?
     
  16. Inspector Gift

    Inspector Gift Sawhorse - Made in USA

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    I'd say the wall surface.
     
  17. Paul Sweet

    Paul Sweet Sawhorse

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    The reason they are so exacting about the 1 1/2" dimension is that somebody's arm can slip and get trapped behind the grab bar if they are bearing their forearm on the grab bar. Mark Handler's sketch shows a good way to resolve this.
     
  18. JPohling

    JPohling Sawhorse

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    Paul, Completely aware of why the 1-1/2" dim was selected. Having that dimension reduced by 3/16" by a combination TP unit is certainly not going to cause any issues.
    Now it will just be a lawsuit fest. and the measurement is being taken to a round bar that can have varying diameter. absurd
     
  19. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

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    Paul, is the concern that:
    a) a space greater than 1.5" is too big, or
    b) a space smaller than 1.5" is too small?

    And on a related note, why does code require that an accessible toilet be adjacent to a wall or partition? Why can't a floor-mounted side grab bar (with no wall) suffice for accessibility? How does the wall itself help make it more accessible?
     
  20. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    That's why I'm asking if you can have a grab bar mounted to a 2X4 which is attached to the wall that is 16" from the center of the toilet. This would change the measurement from the grab bar to the center of the toilet but there is nothing in the code for this distance.

    Also the code doesn't say how long, high or low the side wall or partition needs to be. Can the wall/partition end or be offset before, after, above or below the grab bars? I did have one place where the wall was offset-ed above the grab bars that they used as a shelf to store extra rolls of toilet paper.
     

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