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Once upon a Time............

Discussion in 'Commercial Seismic' started by CodeWarrior, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. CodeWarrior

    CodeWarrior Registered User

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    Looks like the Chinese figured out effective earthquake design a long time ago. Modern science using shake table tests have validated the techniques. Although the ancient way was done with wood, if the methods could be adopted to modern materials, this may prove to be worthwhile.

    The article concludes that there still is a significant risk to live with modern Chinese construction due to corruption. There code enforcement is apparently a joke. If the builder is rapacious (Modern China seems to be a haven for greed), the code officials will readily join forces and let the innocent suffer from the result. That's why supposedly humble government officials hire bodyguards.

    Anyway, we seem to have our own troubles on corruption when the ICC Code Committee rejected adoption of ASCE-16 into the 2018 IBC and it look a lot of effort by ASCE to finally overturn the decision. The ICC members should push the ICC Board to fire that committee and reform the committee selection process so these decisions don't happen again!


    http://interestingengineering.com/dougong-ancient-chinese-brackets-make-buildings-earthquake-proof/
     
  2. Enri Code

    Enri Code Sawhorse

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    [​IMG]

    Interesting enough, some say the very first seismograph was invented in China which is the "Dragon and Toad" seismograph. I was actually lucky enough to see one up close one time in display. So the Chinese have quite a bit of knowledge on how earthquakes work which informed their construction methods.

    There's markedly less corruption these days there though because of the reforms but a lot of knowledge was lost during the cultural revolution. (Note: I've done projects in China)

    The danger nowadays there is not so much corruption but ironically lack of knowledge!
     
  3. ADAguy

    ADAguy Registered User

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    How "Cool"
     
  4. ICE

    ICE Moderator

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    Looks like a Ninja cooker.
     
  5. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    There is no such thing as an earthquake proof building. Buildings can be earthquake resistant.

    The Chinese system shown is a variant that effectively isolates the building from some types of ground motion.
    The building code has provisions that accomplish this by allowing for the use of dampers and base isolators.

    The system shown would likely have problems where there was significant vertical acceleration since it is held together only by gravity. This system would likely also have problems in high winds associated with hurricanes and tornadoes

    I believe that this system was developed in response to other considerations and was not the result of a greater understanding of structural engineering and earthquakes. My guess is that the Chinese system was developed to allow for the resistance of gravity loads without needing nails of other mechanical components and after they built several of these buildings they found that they performed pretty good in an earthquake. We can do better

    While I have my problems with ICC I do not believe that corruption, in the classic sense, caused the difficulties with ASCE 7. Greed and ignorance are more likely the cause. Some special interests did not like the standard because it would increase the cost of some construction so they lobbied to get the change rejected. The majority of individuals on the committee and those present during the meeting were not knowledgeable about the technical issues and were swayed by the concerns about cost so they voted no.

    This was a consequence of the fact that many building officials are not knowledgeable about the issues that they voted on. The result was also influenced by the fact that many building officials are sensitive to what they see as the likely reaction by the decision makers in their jurisdiction. ICC in its self does little to assure the changes are based on good science, rather ICC is more concerned that the process goes smoothly.
     
  6. ADAguy

    ADAguy Registered User

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    Points well made.
     
  7. Enri Code

    Enri Code Sawhorse

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    I definitely hope we can do better than Chinese wood construction techniques that are recorded to be at least 7,000 years old at their oldest.
    Still impressive though to think that some Chinese structures that are more than 2,000 years old - when most of the advanced interlocking wood techniques were developed and utilized - are still standing even down southern China where intense typhoons and earthquakes are quite prevalent.
    The cultural revolution in China was a real tragedy in terms of lost knowledge that we all could have benefited and learned from.
     
  8. Enri Code

    Enri Code Sawhorse

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    Here's the newest version available from your local Best Buy... not as big as the original which was 8 feet in diameter and not as good as predicting earthquakes... but definitely better at cooking... :D

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. ICE

    ICE Moderator

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    One of these is going to land on my front porch today. Not that I'm excited about that. I was told today that I am going on a diet. All the great stuff that's gonna be coming out of the cooker ain't for me.

    a link

    The construction of the Forbidden City is amazing in many respects but the dougong are simple and effective. A PBS documentary had a 1/5 scale structure on a shake table. That table could reach a 12 on the Richter Scale and the structure stood. In the Forbidden City's great halls there are columns that were hand hewn from a tree that are truly massive. The columns are not secured to the earth. They move during an earthquake as do the dougongs.
    The Chinese construction method was meant to exist within the laws of nature. Modern construction methods strive to rewrite the laws of nature.

    a link

    49938211018_3e655f59aa_z.jpg

    Some columns are 80' tall. There's 980 buildings in the Forbidden City. One million workers built it in 14 years. No power tools or machinery. The moat is 20' deep....171' wide and 12,467' long. That's 1.579 million cubic yards of earth moved....one basket at a time.
     
    #9 ICE, May 26, 2020 at 12:28 PM
    Last edited: May 26, 2020 at 1:33 PM
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  10. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Mark, What committee is that and how many building officials are on it? I would bet there are way more industry folks than enforcement folks....
     
  11. Enri Code

    Enri Code Sawhorse

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    This is a profound observation...
     
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  12. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    While the committee may be influenced by industry sources the process has provisions for voting by building officials. You cannot blame all of the problems on industry representatives.

    Suggest that you look at the procedures by which the code changes proposals are adopted and who are appointed to the committees.
     
  13. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Near as I know, we only get to vote on final actions remotely and most of us can't afford to go vote all over the country....
     
  14. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Maybe this group:

    2019 IBC-Structural (IBC-S) Code Committee Ronald Brendel, PE Sr. Plan Reviewer/Code Development Specialist City of Saint Louis, MO St. Louis, MO David D. Chang, PE, SE Senior Structural Engineer Building and Safety Department, City of Los Angeles Alta Loma, CA Wanda D. Edwards, PE Wanda Edwards Consulting Raleigh, NC Edward Lisinski, PE, Vice Chair Director, Department of Building Inspection & Neighborhood Services City of West Allis West Allis, WI Cornelia Orzescu Plans Examiner Town of Parker Parker, CO Larry Anthony Paul, AIA Principal Architect L. A. Paul Associates San Rafael, CA Anne Payne Senior Building Inspector City of Poquoson Poquoson, VA Jay Richards, RA Assistant Architect Administrator State of Ohio-Board of Building Standards Reynoldsburg, OH Dwight “Sonny” M. Richardson, Jr., LTC, EN Rep: NAHB President Richardson Home Builders Inc. Tuscaloosa, AL Gwenyth R. Searer, PE, SE Principal Wiss, Janney, Elstner Associates, Inc. Emeryville, CA Saul Shapiro, PE Vice President Langan Engineering New York, NY Constadino (Gus) Sirakis, PE, Chair Assistant Commissioner of Technical Affairs & Code Development New York City Department of Buildings New York, NY Jonathan C. Siu, PE, SE Principal Engineer/Building Official City of Seattle, Department of Construction and Inspections Seattle, WA Paul A. Turner, AIA Principal Architect Stewart, Schaberg & Turner/Architects LLC 15 Whitehall CT Brentwood, MO Howard Zee, PE, SE Structural Engineer City & County of San Francisco, Department of Building Inspection San Francisco, CA Staff Secretariats: Lawrence C. Novak, SE, F.SEI, CERT, LEED AP Chief Structural Engineer Codes and Standards Development International Code Council Central Regional Office Country Club Hills, IL Edward Wirtschoreck, RA Director-Code Development International Code Council Codes and Standards Development Central Regional Office Country Club Hills, IL
     
  15. Glenn

    Glenn Corporate Supporter
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    Appears to be well-qualified folks to be making decisions on the committee. If not... that's why there is a second hearing.
     
  16. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    As I understand the second vote was a part of a standard ICC appeal process.

    This was necessary because the original decision prevented the adoption of the latest edition of ASCE 7 which is the basic document defining structural loads. This created a number of problems since other standards were coordinated with the proposed standard. The negative position was the result of opposition by a number of developers because this would result in some increase of the cost of new buildings as a result of, I believe, revised wind loads based on the latest science.

    Science was trumped by politics.

    My understanding of the process is that first hearings are first held by the committee and they make recommendations for or against adoption of the various proposals. Then there is a second meeting where the ICC members from the jurisdictions that are present vote on appeals to these recommendation. Maybe somebody who better understands the ICC adoption process can provide clarity.
     
  17. ADAguy

    ADAguy Registered User

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    Failure was not tolerated, to fail was to lose face.
     
  18. Glenn

    Glenn Corporate Supporter
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    I write proposals and attend the hearings. I wrote an article about the process for Fine Homebuilding Magazine to help inform the general public about how I-codes are developed. The goal being to promote positivity in building codes. https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2019/07/09/changes-to-the-building-codes
     
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  19. Enri Code

    Enri Code Sawhorse

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    Honor is a big deal for sure.

    Those ancient civilizations don't fool around.

    Code of Hammurabi is more intense:
    If a builder builds a house for a man and does not make its construction sound, and the house which he has built collapses and causes the death of the owner of the house, the builder shall be put to death.
    If a builder builds a house for a man and does not make its construction sound, and the house which he has built collapses and causes the death of the son of the owner of the house, the builder's own son or the builder shall be put to death. :(
     
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  20. Enri Code

    Enri Code Sawhorse

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    @Glenn Thank you for sharing this. Maybe you can have this as a standalone post too that can be pinned as a resource.
     
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