PEX

[conarb]

As most know California has approved PEX after years of debate, I've never seen it but I presume I'll be seeing it now. A poster from Massachusetts posted this today:

A client had a pex fitting fail on a heating system full of glycol/water mix when no one was home and it ran for at least an hour. It ran down several stud bays as well as completely filled a floor/ceiling bay with water(stains on the carpet above and ceiling below). It was about 1 inch deep on the floor and soaked the bottom of all the walls causing some of the wall paneling to buckleWe are planing on replacing the sheet rock on the ceiling and the carpet . I know the water in the framing will dry out but what about the glycol ? it smells like a leaking radiator down there.

Does any one have any experience with this situation? can the smell be sealed in with kilz or similar product?

should we just plan on replacing all the walls in the basement or will drying out make it all better?

It was the fittings that created all the polybutylene pipe failures, is this stuff a time bomb waiting to happen? Can you imagine the chances of failure with PEX in the slabs for heat, the walls for potable water, and the ceilings for fire sprinklers?

 

[north star]

Re: PEX

conarb,

As I understand the situation with pex, the fittings that were / are being installed on the

piping itself are the concern. They will fail over time, because of the continual expansion

and contraction of the piping. The metal fittings will expand and contract for a while,

but then they lose their ability to contact enough to seal the piping.

Yeah, it's a problem that's going to get bigger. :shock:

 

[SCBO1]

Re: PEX

North star,

PEX information guide sez' the pipe can expand 1" in a 100' span, I have not heard of the fitting's being a concern. Do you mean the connection to the fitting is a concern?

 

[jar546]

Re: PEX

The fittings have always been the problem in any plastic pressurized piping

 

[beach]

Re: PEX

We have about twenty buildings in one area that used it about eight years ago, no problems yet....waiting to see

 

[north star]

Re: PEX

Pcinspector1,

The rings that were / are being used to crimp onto the individual fittings are the problem.

Some pex installations are using a copper type ring in the crimping process. I do not

know the actual composition of those rings, but as I understand it, those "copper type"

rings will expand and contract for a period of time. Because of the continuous

stressing of the piping, as it expands and contracts, the metal type rings will lose their

ability to contract back enough to maintain a seal on the fittings. Some pex

installations have recommended using a metal fitting that will not expand and contract

as much, ...something like a stainless steel fitting, that will maintain its seal onto the

individual fittings and still allow the piping to expand and contract.

 

[Moscow]

Re: PEX

Here it been used for about 5 years no problems YET. the only thing that has happend is in a new apartment building and tenate left for x-mas break and shut all his heat off, the weather truned very cold and froze the whole apartment, it got so cold that the fish tank was frozen soild with the fish still in it. Anyways the only leak they had in the whold systme was a shut off valve under the sink pushed off the pipe and was spraying. If that would of been a copper system they would of had to repipe the whole apartment.

Justin

 

[Uncle Bob]

Re: PEX

ConArb,

As you see; everyone states that there have been few or no reports of failure.

When a home owner has a water leak in the wall they don't call the city inspections department; and, the plumber does report the leak to the inspections department.

The homeowner calls a plumber who repairs the leak.

Cheap, unreliable products increase service calls. It's a win, win situation for the plumbing companies.

There will never be any reliable reporting of plumbing pipe failures.

Uncle Bob

 

[RJJ]

Re: PEX

I have a number of jobs with pex! Have only had a few problems with the fittings over the last ten years. Mostly at the time of new installation. Just a bad connection made! Have no reports of failure on projects up and running.

 

[Mule]

Re: PEX

Same here. We've had PEX installed now for around six years and have not had any problems that I am aware of.

 

[beach]

Re: PEX

When a home owner has a water leak in the wall they don't call the city inspections department

If there were enough problems with Pex, you'd hear about it. It's been used for years in mobile homes, motor homes, campers and boats with no problems (or the manufacturer wouldn't use it for obvious reasons). Polybutylene was first used in mobile homes, etc., until a CLASS ACTION SUIT had the manufacturers switch to PEX...Hmmm, a class action suit....enough problems, and people COMPLAIN. I'm sure there were naysayers when plumbers started using copper instead of galvanized pipe....OMG, SOLDERED joints instead of threads and pipe dope??????? What kind of CRAP is that?? LEAD in my water????? We'll all die!! No problem, they switched to "lead less" solder, then it was ..OMG, LEADLESS SOLDER?? That will be too hard to sweat, the joints will leak.....

Today’s plumbing in manufactured homes can be described as ‘on the cutting-edge of technology.’ Because codes for site-built houses are strict and hard to change, mobile-home manufacturers are often the first to test new technology. Thanks to mobile home manufacturers, this country is now seeing a shift towards plastic waterlines -- more specifically, a shift to cross-linked polyethylene (pex).

Working with plastic waterlines is very simple, easy and fast. So why would plumbers scoff at that? One reason is that in many areas, codes for site-built homes have changed very little over the years. This has given many plumbers a good reason for not wanting to learn anything new. In fact, those same plumbers probably despise the new technology; therefore, they refuse to work on mobile homes.

 

[conarb]

Re: PEX

So the idea is to lower the quality of site built homes down to the level of mobile homes? Those damn building codes always do get in the way of new and innovative products, we should fire all those pesky building inspectors, all we really need is a fire code anyway, firemen make perfectly good inspectors and they need something to do anyway.

Class Action Lawsuit Filed Against Zurn Pex and Zurn Industries Relating to Failure of PEX Plumbing Systems in HomesST. PAUL, Minn., Aug. 10, 2007 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) -- Homeowners in Minnesota have filed a class action lawsuit in federal district court against the manufacturer of residential plumbing systems. The homeowners, Denise and Terry Cox from Detroit Lakes, Minnesota, started the nationwide class action against Zurn Pex, Inc. and Zurn Industries after brass plumbing fittings used in their home's PEX plumbing system failed shortly after completion of their new home. The failures caused water and other damage at the Cox home.

PEX plumbing systems involve flexible plastic plumbing tubes (as opposed to the more common copper plumbing systems) that are attached to brass fittings throughout the plumbing system. "PEX" is a generic term for cross linked polyethylene -- the material used to make the plastic piping. PEX plumbing systems are the newest generation of non-copper plumbing systems coming into favor after the plumbing industry stopped selling the failure-prone polybutylene pipe systems.

According to Cox's attorney, Shawn Raiter, the problems with Zurn's brass fittings can cause significant damage to homes. "Water damage from a total failure, or even a slow leak, can cause serious damage. A large percentage of the brass fittings in a typical residential PEX system are hidden behind drywall or between floors. If undetected, water damage from a leaking fitting can even lead to mold, which in turn can pose a health risk.¹

¹ http://newsblaze.com/story/200708101350 ... story.html

 

[beach]

Re: PEX

Zurn manufactured bad fittings, that doesn't mean the Pex is bad. That's like saying all copper plumbing is bad because Elkhart manufactured a batch of bad ninety degree fittings and flooded some houses. I get that you don't like plastic anything, or manufactured lumber products, etc. but the fact is...most homes will be built using that stuff long after you are gone from this earth. You can't live in the good 'ol days forever, you need to evolve. We've had some homes here that were less than three years old that had "bad copper" I didn't see it, but I think the plumber didn't ream the copper and the turbulance wore through the pipe or fittings, just my guess......but I did hear about it. My point is that UB stated that we will never hear about problems with pex if there are any..and I disagree.

 

[RJJ]

Re: PEX

CA: I don't like pex but do allow it. Anything can fail! The statement that when a problem occurs they don't call the city inspector! That maybe! In my ahj they call me on just about anything even when they did something with out a permit or inspection and the job has problems. That is real dumb, but it happens.

When I was on the other side of the counter one job was a real mess. People had a new bath and kitchen installed. About six month after the install the supply line in the bath toilet popped. It was a brass line. New! The homeowners had left for work early and returned late. The house from the second floor to the basement was destroyed. What a mess. It wasn't pex! It was all copper and chrome. Anything can't fail. This is just one project. Never made it to city hall and probable was buried in some insurance static for water damage in a home.

Fact is pex is somewhat new! We may see problems! I would say that is to be expected!

 

[conarb]

Re: PEX

The polybutylene failures that resulted in it's approval being withdrawn had to do with fittings too, so what's the difference between fittings failing on polybutylene and PEX? I think Uncle Bob's comments ran to the fact that this is the tip of the iceberg, maybe for every hundred or thousand PEX failing only one failure is reported?

As to my hating low quality materials you should see what's happening with California's new voluntary Green Building Standards, people are already getting so sick in new homes that some can't even be occupied, at least one city is paying for air quality tests prior to people moving in.

New homes in Los Altos tend to have elevated formaldehyde. Exposure to formaldehyde causes asthma, bronchitis, sinus infections, headaches, and sleep disorders.Late 2007, the City of Los Altos passed an ordinance requiring new homes to be GreenPoint Rated. A program designed to conserve energy and resources, GreenPoint Rated homes are often designed with inadequate ventilation.

A large study funded by the State found that homes need about 1 air change per hour (ACH) to dilute formaldehyde to safe levels. Many GreenPoint Rated homes have less than 0.2 ACH. New regulations taking effect in January 2010 will only require 0.3 ACH.

Independent research in Bay Area communities found that GreenPoint Rated homes often have formaldehyde concentrations that can cause illness. Formaldehyde exceeding 80 ppb is common in GreenPoint Rated homes. Children are affected by as little as 30 ppb.

Phase I of the research project focused on formaldehyde in unoccupied homes. The goal was to identify characteristics of buildings that lead to increased formaldehyde.

Phase II will identify homes where formaldehyde has caused illness. Sources of formaldehyde will be identified, so that homeowners can remove the materials that are making them ill.¹

¹ http://www.examiner.com/x-5101-San-Jose ... -Los-Altos

 

[beach]

Re: PEX

Pb fittings AND pipe broke down from chlorinated water. I stand by my example in my last post regarding copper fittings.

http://www.repipenews.com/

 

[conarb]

Re: PEX

20 Years and $10 million dollars later it was banned, will the same thing happen to PEX? We do have chlorinated water, that will never go away.

 

[beach]

Re: PEX

You don't know if chlorinated water deteriorates Pex. I'm not going to play this game with you, it's been done before. Back up your claims before posting and stop the heresay.

 

[conarb]

Re: PEX

You don't know if chlorinated water deteriorates Pex

No I don't, it's always been illegal here, I have seen it in Oregon and in a double-wide trailer that a friend owns up in Santa Rosa, all I know is that in both cases the water pressure is very low, too low for me to enjoy a shower, in Oregon I was told that the low pressure is the PEX, that nobody knows how to install it properly and they clamp it too strong at the connections redistricting the tube diameter.

So tell us, does chlorinated water destroy PEX and/or its connectors?

 

[Jasper]

Re: PEX

You don't know if chlorinated water deteriorates Pex

So tell us, does chlorinated water destroy PEX and/or its connectors?

At least one manufacturer of PEX lines says that chlorinated water and ultra-violet light damage PEX:

http://www.calpipes.org/pdf/Lubrizol_Letter.pdf

According to Lubrizol, the best measure [available to most buyers] of the PEX lines' ability to resist such degradation is the length of the manufacturer's warranty against exposure to sunlight. The best way to take advantage of such a warranty is to keep the lines out of sunlight, and keep the protection for use against the chlorine.

 

[conarb]

Re: PEX

Thanks Jasper, it looks like California AHJ's should exclude the product if their water is Chlorinated. If it isn't chlorinated (which all municipal water in California is), then the AHJs should disallow it in recirculating hot water systems, Inspectors then have to make a field determination as to whether it's been exposed to UV light prior to installation.

 

[RJJ]

Re: PEX

CA: The chlorinated issue is interesting! I would need more facts. However, No inspector has the time or the ability to make a determination if, or if not, that the Pex has been exposed to sunlight! Is 1 minute to much or is the right determination 3 days! Who Knows? Now I know you can find the facts. Next it is code approved! Big hurtle to overcome to deny such a product from use.

 

[Jasper]

Re: PEX

CA: The chlorinated issue is interesting! I would need more facts. However, No inspector has the time or the ability to make a determination if, or if not, that the Pex has been exposed to sunlight! Is 1 minute to much or is the right determination 3 days! Who Knows? Now I know you can find the facts. Next it is code approved! Big hurtle to overcome to deny such a product from use.

My hypothesis is that PEX uses up its rated life (against chlorine, other oxidants, and UV) in proportion to its exposure, with each exposure adjusted for time-at-temperature and concentration of the harmful influence. Based on the information in Lubrizol's letter, I have a few SWAGs (scientific wild-ass guesses):

1) If PEX with a 15 day warranty against exposure to sunlight is exposed to sunlight for 3 days, it has used up 20 percent of its rated margin for exposure to oxidants.

2) If PEX with a 180 day warranty against exposure to sunlight is exposed to sunlight for 3 days, it has used up just two percent of its rated margin for exposure to oxidants.

3) If PEX with a 15 day warranty against exposure to sunlight is designed to handle 50 years of exposure to chlorinated drinking water, then each day of exposure to sunlight potentially reduces PEX's life by a few years.

4) PEX with a 180 day warranty against exposure to sunlight is designed to last a lot longer than PEX with a 15 day warranty against exposure to sunlight.

 

[Jasper]

Re: PEX

CA: The chlorinated issue is interesting! I would need more facts. However, No inspector has the time or the ability to make a determination if, or if not, that the Pex has been exposed to sunlight! Is 1 minute to much or is the right determination 3 days! Who Knows? Now I know you can find the facts. Next it is code approved! Big hurtle to overcome to deny such a product from use.

I am not a lawyer, but I would guess that for purposes of the code, you would need to look at three factors:

1) Were the manufacturer's instructions followed?

2) Was the product exposed to sunlight for longer than the manufacturer's warranty period against exposure to sunlight?

3) Does your code have any special provisions?