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PIV

north star

north star

Sawhorse
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
4,596
@ = @ = @

I have an existing facility with a fire alarm system and fully
sprinkled.

The electrical wiring from the FACP inside the bldg. to the
PIV has become damaged \ inoperable \ needs to be
replaced.

I have an Electrical Contractor that has tried to replace the
conductors inside the underground conduit and cannot
because of something blocking their attempts [ allegedly ].

QUESTION # 1: Is conduit required for the underground
wiring from the FACP to the PIV, or can they bore something
using a UF rated wiring assembly ?

QUESTION # 2: Which is typically cheaper, digging a new
trench & installing conduit, and then pulling conductors thru,
or boring ?

QUESTION # 3: Which NFPA Codes provide guidance on
this ?

QUESTION # 4: Anything else I should be aware of ?

Thanks !

@ = @ = @
 
I would look at NFPA 25 for sprinkler system maintenance, the are alternative means for securing PIV, locking and inspecting come to mind
 
Ask the locals

We require for underground

Direct burial wire

And in conduit

But we allow locking of piv no electronic monitoring
 
As per 25...monthly documented visual inspection ie lock is on the hasp locking the handle in place and says “OPEN” in the window (both sides) with annual full closure and opening of the valve.
 
@ ~ @

O.K., great !......Thanks for the input.

Because I have zero to very little experience with the Fire Codes,
...if I may ask some more questions please......[ Some background
info: We have a FACP System installed with proprietary software
in this facility & other facilities.........One company can do some
basic replacing of components, while the company with the
proprietary programming software must perform the actual
"programming in" of the components.......There is too much other
background info to list here ]........I am at the limits of my repair
budget for this one facility.

Next question, ...Is the PIV "required" to be electrically connected
back to FACP for monitoring ?

QUESTION # 2: How will the PIV "not" being connected to the
FACP affect the overall sprinkler system ?

QUESTION # 3: Will the existing FACP & sprinkler system be
"required" to be re-programmed with the PIV "not" connected ?

@ ~ @
 
north star said:
@ ~ @

O.K., great !......Thanks for the input.

Because I have zero to very little experience with the Fire Codes,
...if I may ask some more questions please......[ Some background
info: We have a FACP System installed with proprietary software
in this facility & other facilities.........One company can do some
basic replacing of components, while the company with the
proprietary programming software must perform the actual
"programming in" of the components.......There is too much other
background info to list here ]........I am at the limits of my repair
budget for this one facility.

Next question, ...Is the PIV "required" to be electrically connected
back to FACP for monitoring ?



Would be a local question

We allowed ours to be locked only



QUESTION # 2: How will the PIV "not" being connected to the
FACP affect the overall sprinkler system ?


Not at all,,,

Unless someone closes it

Can you say lock it and at least weekly visual check.



QUESTION # 3: Will the existing FACP & sprinkler system be
"required" to be re-programmed with the PIV "not" connected ?




Yep,, or you keep a trouble or supervisory on it all the time.


Now someone might be able to put an “ end of line resistor at the panel or the wiring to the piv and fool the panel into thinking the piv is still there, and not have to program it.



@ ~ @
Click to expand...

Sorry see the replies in the quote


Love proprietary !!!!!


Older panel??? As in need of changing out ???
 
# ~ #

cda,

I am unsure of the age of the panel......I would guess
it to be approx. 10 + years old.

# ~ #
 
sorry my answers to your questions:::

Next question, ...Is the PIV "required" to be electrically connected
back to FACP for monitoring ?



Would be a local question

We allowed ours to be locked only



QUESTION # 2: How will the PIV "not" being connected to the
FACP affect the overall sprinkler system ?


Not at all,,,

Unless someone closes it

Can you say lock it and at least weekly visual check.



QUESTION # 3: Will the existing FACP & sprinkler system be
"required" to be re-programmed with the PIV "not" connected ?




Yep,, or you keep a trouble or supervisory on it all the time.


Now someone might be able to put an “ end of line resistor at the panel or the wiring to the piv and fool the panel into thinking the piv is still there, and not have to program it.
 
Actually, the requirement for electronic monitoring of sprinkler system control valves usually comes from the building code. (NFPA 13 allows locking them in the open position as a means of supervision). Section 903.4 of the IBC ('15 ed.) requires valves controlling the water supplies to automatic sprinkler systems to be electrically supervised by a listed fire alarm control unit. (BOCA used to have similar language.) There are 7 printed exceptions to this, but none of them would apply to an NFPA 13 system main control valve.

For the wiring arrangement, the NEC (Sect. 760) would specify what that would have to comply with. I'm not an NEC code guy at all, but I'm guessing there are options, based on what type of wire/cabling they want to use.
 
Ask the local ahj, your insurance company, risk management and anyone else

We allow locking, knowing exterior monitoring is a problem
 
% ~ % ~ %

O.K., ...good info so far........The AHJ isn't sure
of exactly which way they want to go yet.

I just needed some info to assist them in their
decision making.

Much Thanks ya'll ! :D

% ~ % ~ %
 
north star said:
% ~ % ~ %

O.K., ...good info so far........The AHJ isn't sure
of exactly which way they want to go yet.

I just needed some info to assist them in their
decision making.

Much Thanks ya'll ! :D

% ~ % ~ %
Click to expand...


Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up
 
@ * @ * @
" Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up Lock it Up "
Click to expand...
Can't, ...it's "military, military, military, military, military, military, military" !

@ * @ * @
 
If this is a military facility check UFC 3-600-01 (25 March 2018 version):

"9-3.4.5
When provided, PIV’s must be supervised using a lock or tamper seal, at a minimum. "

This maybe conflicts with other criteria, but it might provide a talking point.
 
% * % * %

Thanks **Sleepy** for the input !

The facility in question IS a military facility.......Their Leadership
wants to "do the right thing", and have all components of
the fire protection system operational and fully compliant.

% * % * %
 
Now you tell us, make sure you use the military grade duct high speed tape, with the EMP shielding, etc.

Right or wrong, this is how we have it worded, but once again we only require locking of PIV,,


UNDERGROUND WIRING

Underground wiring shall be used only for the purpose of signal transmittal. No power circuit wiring will be allowed. Wiring shall be a listed waterproof underground fire alarm wire, and shall be placed in conduit.
 
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