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Pool barrier w/ pool replacement?

steveray

SAWHORSE
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
11,751
Location
West of the river CT
This is an interp handed down by our state office....anyone have an opinion on this? I do not agree, being that the "pool permit" is what drives the barrier requirement...I guess I shouldn't have too much heartburn about it seeing as how they put it in writing, but I don't care how much writing you have when there is a little kid face down at the bottom of a pool.......

The following is in response to your request for formal interpretation dated July 22, 2011.

Question:

An in-ground swimming pool at an existing single family home has a pool barrier that was code-compliant at the time that the pool was originally installed. Based on degradation of the existing pool, the owner wishes to remove the existing pool and install a new one in its place. Must the owner replace the legal existing pool barrier with a new one that meets the requirements of the 2005 State Building Code?

Answer:

No. Section R102.7, of the 2003 International Residential Code portion of the 2005 State Building Code (IRC), clearly states that the legal occupancy of any building or structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as specifically covered in this code. The trigger for the pool barrier was the original installation of the swimming pool, and since the barrier conformed to the code requirements in effect at the time of its construction, it is allowed to remain as a legally existing structure even though the owner has chosen to upgrade the pool. Naturally, since the pool itself is new construction, it must be compliant with the current code. If it was the intention of the code to require upgrading legal existing pool barriers to meet current requirements, that provision would be in the code; much like the requirement to add smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors in existing homes undergoing alterations or additions or adding sleeping rooms.

This formal interpretation supersedes the previously issued Formal Interpretation I-10-09 regarding this issue.
 
I disagree with the interpretation. The barrier is part of the requirement of the pool. With not only the code changing, but federal laws changing so much on swimming pools, this is one area I'd make sure I was covered in if I were a jurisdiction, especially with our litigious society.
 
Sounds like the state office has indemnified your jurisdiction. Keep that interp handy in case the worst happns....
 
I disagree with the "interpretation" also.

I would think your local Code would permit you to require something more restrictive than the State. In which case, stick to your guns and fight for the compliant fence.

If the owners challenge, so be it. At least you will have done all you can.

mj
 
Right or wrong, if you know about the state formal interp and say you are going to enforce more anyhow you are dating Miss Feasance and flirting with her sister Mal.
 
Maybe the contractor will remove the barrier to put in the new pool and then you can enforce the new requirements when they try to put it back
 
Exactly what I was thinking MT....interp was not for me....hopefully i will never have to deal with it...

MJ.... State Code...no local...statute says no local ordinance can be stricter than the state code....
 
steveray said:
This is an interp handed down by our state office....anyone have an opinion on this? I do not agree, being that the "pool permit" is what drives the barrier requirement...I guess I shouldn't have too much heartburn about it seeing as how they put it in writing, but I don't care how much writing you have when there is a little kid face down at the bottom of a pool.......The following is in response to your request for formal interpretation dated July 22, 2011.

Question:

An in-ground swimming pool at an existing single family home has a pool barrier that was code-compliant at the time that the pool was originally installed. Based on degradation of the existing pool, the owner wishes to remove the existing pool and install a new one in its place. Must the owner replace the legal existing pool barrier with a new one that meets the requirements of the 2005 State Building Code?

Answer:

No. Section R102.7, of the 2003 International Residential Code portion of the 2005 State Building Code (IRC), clearly states that the legal occupancy of any building or structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as specifically covered in this code. The trigger for the pool barrier was the original installation of the swimming pool, and since the barrier conformed to the code requirements in effect at the time of its construction, it is allowed to remain as a legally existing structure even though the owner has chosen to upgrade the pool. Naturally, since the pool itself is new construction, it must be compliant with the current code. If it was the intention of the code to require upgrading legal existing pool barriers to meet current requirements, that provision would be in the code; much like the requirement to add smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors in existing homes undergoing alterations or additions or adding sleeping rooms.

This formal interpretation supersedes the previously issued Formal Interpretation I-10-09 regarding this issue.
The State has not provided a code interpretation. The State has provided a policy statement. I assume that much like my AHJ, your AHJ sets policy, not the State. You should thank the State for the reply and then say no thanks to the State's policy.

And the way they got there is almost comical. It's not in the code like it is for smoke and CO detectors so the code makers thought about it and said "Aw the heck with it." Really? Some smart thinker thought that makes sense?
 
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mtlogcabin said:
Maybe the contractor will remove the barrier to put in the new pool and then you can enforce the new requirements when they try to put it back
Seems to me any pool contractor worth his salt would have that in his bid??? New pool must meet the code requirements currently adopted, no???
 
chris kennedy said:
Seems to me any pool contractor worth his salt would have that in his bid??? New pool must meet the code requirements currently adopted, no???
I have never had a pool contractor install fence and gate for a pool barrier. I have been there a few hundred times and I do mean never.

They call for pre-plaster and get shot down because there is no compliant barrier. The next day I always get a call from the owner asking me what he's supposed to do. The contractor will not help the owner, Hell the contractor won't even discuss it other than to say that it's in the contract that the owner is responsible for the barrier.

At the pre-plaster inspection, I leave a handout that explains in detail what a barrier shall be. Then I have to go back and walk the site with the owner explaining it all in person. Then I have to go back and tell them that they didn't get it right and listen to: "My wife picked out the fence and she insisted on this fence that looks a lot like a ladder."

Another thing the contractor misses on purpose is safety glazing. They don't tell the owners that there will be a $450 extra for changing some glazing. And you should see them light up when they find out that they need $3500 in fence and gate.
 
chris kennedy said:
Seems to me any pool contractor worth his salt would have that in his bid??? New pool must meet the code requirements currently adopted, no???
This is the part I don't understand Chris....by this same logic...the existing wiring could stay(non-gfci?) if it were pre code?....I don't see that as any different than the barrier requirements stemming from the pool permit....

I can only guess that someone on the "Gold Coast" was replacing their pool and didn't want a new barrier to wreck their view and called whoever they needed to at the state.....
 
Did CT refrain from adopting the PMC? Barriers are in the PMC; 303.2 in the 2012.

If you have adopted the PMC there should not be a poolwithout a compliant barrier regardless of when it was built or whether or not work is being done.
 
steveray said:
No state PMC....some towns have something, some have nothing.....
Well, that stinks. I won't comment on the interp. Maybe forward it to the assemblyman of a jurisdiction wherein they've had a child drown.

Could you not also say that the second to swimming pool is removed, the fence is decorative? Can I remove my pool this year and install a new pool in a couple of years with the same old barrier?

Tim
 
Answer:

The trigger for the pool barrier was the original installation of the swimming pool, and since the barrier conformed to the code requirements in effect at the time of its construction, it is allowed to remain as a legally existing structure even though the owner has chosen to upgrade the pool.

It's not an upgrade......... It's a new pool. Talk about confused..they say not to upgrade the fence but you have to install the new pool to current codes??

I'm with mtlogcabin.... tell them as long as they can install the new pool without removing "any" part of the fence and they don't have to bring it up to code BUT remove one slat.......BAM!!!! Non-compliant any more!!
 
Mule said:
Answer:The trigger for the pool barrier was the original installation of the swimming pool, and since the barrier conformed to the code requirements in effect at the time of its construction, it is allowed to remain as a legally existing structure even though the owner has chosen to upgrade the pool.

It's not an upgrade......... It's a new pool. Talk about confused..they say not to upgrade the fence but you have to install the new pool to current codes??

I'm with mtlogcabin.... tell them as long as they can install the new pool without removing "any" part of the fence and they don't have to bring it up to code BUT remove one slat.......BAM!!!! Non-compliant any more!!
Do you have the IEBC, maybe you can get them on level three alteration.
 
gbhammer said:
Do you have the IEBC, maybe you can get them on level three alteration.
I do not believe the IEBC is applicable to swimming pool renovations or replacements since the are not a building

101.2 Scope.

The provisions of the International Existing Building Code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition and relocation of existing buildings .
 
I think I would approach it in the...if you can do it without taking down the barrier you are OK route....still don't like it, but I guess I can fall back on the state interp if needed.....hopefully it never comes to that!

Thanks all for the input and helping me think I am not crazy...(in this regard)
 
I would like to see a requirement to upgrade the bairrer, but if is in compliance with the code at the time IMO not much can do. Is less safe because you change what is holding the water? Now if you remove part of the barrier now you have to bing the whole barrier up to code- please!!! Where does that come from?
 
Steveray,

What type of barrier is installed, being you are in CT, the other side of the tracks means something more than many other places.

The existing pool barrier might be somewhat costly which has not been mentioned, is this an off the shelf post and slip together or a custom fabricated elaborate design of some sort and very costly material?

As to why would this matter, well though many might say it doesn't if the current fence cost more than the pool, one might have an issue with it's removal.

As to removing just one part, I would have to disagree, if they remove 3 fence panels and 2 posts on a 40 plus panel system I would disagree, if they take more than 40% out or most the posts and panels then I do agree triggers for a new fence.

Also, what are they upgrading, if they are re-plastering, tile and new decking, but not removing the main structure then I would call it a face lift, however, if they remove the structure of the pool in the same manner as replacing foundation sections, sorry, I would agree that the barrier needs to be brought up to compliance.

Simply, what is the issue with replacing the pool barrier, if it is a low cost Item I would look at it one way, it the existing barrier is a very costly first purchase, I would take that in to consideration.

However, with that said CT is like NJ in that it is a state wide building code, enforced by state Lic. inspectors working for the local AHJ, and though writing a local building code is not an option, I am not sure why the local town can't adopt a local ord. elevating additional requirements, example: in NJ the min height for a pool barrier is 48" state code, however many local towns require 54" & 72" min. Though not the current requirement in the town, why a town trigger could not be added is unclear to me for when a existing barrier must meet the new requirements.

Tom
 
The maintenance code has pool barrier requirements if you have adopted it. What is wrong with the existing barrier?
 
Not my situation....just an interp asked for in another jurisdiction......no specifics, just the underlying precedent that I don't like.....The pool install drives the barrier install....if the pool is ripped out and replaced, barrier should be made compliant IMHO....if the wiring were not compliant, (no twist lock, no GFCI, no bonding, whatever) can you install a new pool without upgrading those things? Just because it is a replacement?

Tom.....I am told we now also have a state statute that says that no local ordinance can be stricter than the state building code....wait till they find out that that effectively eliminates all zoning setbacks! Get elected, immediately insert head where sun does not shine!
 
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