Rating soffit/chase for electrical feeders

[Ryan Schultz]

We have a 3 story R-2 (Type VB) over a S-2 (Type 1B) basement. Per 510.4 there's a 2hr floor between the occupancies.

We have feeders coming into the S-2 basement, and then routing up through the 2hr floor.

The local inspector is requiring us to build a 2hr hour soffit/chase around all the feeders inside the S-2 fire area.

From my understanding of the code, this is not necessary. Am I missing something?

The penetrations are small enough to satisfy 714.4.1.

 

[RLGA]

If the through-penetration assembly is rated for 2-hours in a horizontal condition, then a rated soffit is not required.

 

[classicT]

I agree with Ron on this one. A rated soffit is overkill given that the penetrations are adequately firestopped.

The only caveat that I would note is that if the electrical feeders are supplying power to an essential system (i.e. egress elevator for 4+ story building), they shall be protected by a 2-hr assembly per IBC Section 3008.8.1.

3008.8.1 Protection of Wiring or Cables
Wires or cables that are located outside of the elevator hoistway, machine room, control room and control space and that provide normal or standby power, control signals, communication with the car, lighting, heating, air conditioning, ventilation and fire-detecting systems to occupant evacuation elevators shall be protected by construction having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours, shall be circuit integrity cable having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours or shall be protected by a listed electrical circuit protective system having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours.

Exception: Wiring and cables to control signals are not required to be protected provided that wiring and cables do not serve Phase II emergency in-car operation.​

 

[RLGA]

Ty J., actually that would be required of an occupant evacuation elevator regardless of the number of stories involved--not just 4+. It is also required for fire service access elevators when they are required.

 

[classicT]

Ty J., actually that would be required of an occupant evacuation elevator regardless of the number of stories involved--not just 4+. It is also required for fire service access elevators when they are required.

I'm aware....but occupant evacuation elevator or fire service access elevators are not typically required for buildings less than 4 stories.

 

[cda]

We have a 3 story R-2 (Type VB) over a S-2 (Type 1B) basement. Per 510.4 there's a 2hr floor between the occupancies.

We have feeders coming into the S-2 basement, and then routing up through the 2hr floor.

The local inspector is requiring us to build a 2hr hour soffit/chase around all the feeders inside the S-2 fire area.

From my understanding of the code, this is not necessary. Am I missing something?

The penetrations are small enough to satisfy 714.4.1.

Ask the nice local inspector for a code section.

 

[classicT]

Ty J., actually that would be required of an occupant evacuation elevator regardless of the number of stories involved--not just 4+. It is also required for fire service access elevators when they are required.

Ron, please see IBC Section 1009.2.1 (below). This section is the reason I provided an example of an egress elevator for a 4+ story building.

The other condition, as you indicated is for a fire service access elevator, which is only required for high-rise buildings per IBC Section 403.6.1 (below).

1009.2.1 Elevators Required
In buildings where a required accessible floor is four or more stories above or below a level of exit discharge, not less than one required accessible means of egress shall be an elevator complying with Section 1009.4.
Exceptions:

1. In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a horizontal exit and located at or above the levels of exit discharge.
2. In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a ramp conforming to the provisions of Section 1012.

403.6.1 Fire Service Access Elevator
In buildings with an occupied floor more than 120 feet (36 576 mm) above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access, no fewer than two fire service access elevators, or all elevators, whichever is less, shall be provided in accordance with Section 3007. Each fire service access elevator shall have a capacity of not less than 3,500 pounds (1588 kg) and shall comply with Section 3002.4.​

 

[RLGA]

I'm aware....but occupant evacuation elevator or fire service access elevators are not typically required for buildings less than 4 stories.

Occupant evacuation elevators are not required anywhere in the IBC, except as a substitution for the additional stairway required for non-Group R-2 high rise buildings over 420 feet in height.

 

[classicT]

Occupant evacuation elevators are not required anywhere in the IBC, except as a substitution for the additional stairway required for non-Group R-2 high rise buildings over 420 feet in height.

Uhmmm.... I disagree.

1009.2.1 Elevators Required
In buildings where a required accessible floor is four or more stories above or below a level of exit discharge, not less than one required accessible means of egress shall be an elevator complying with Section 1009.4.
Exceptions:

1. In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a horizontal exit and located at or above the levels of exit discharge.
2. In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a ramp conforming to the provisions of Section 1012.

3008.1 General
Where elevators are to be used for occupant self-evacuation during fires, all passenger elevators for general public use shall comply with Sections 3008.1 through 3008.10. Where other elevators are used for occupant self-evacuation, those elevators shall comply with these sections.​

 

[RLGA]

Ty J.:

Two things:

1. Section 1009.2.1 applies to buildings 5+ stories (i.e., 4 stories above the level of exit discharge).
2. Section 1009.2.1 requires an elevator to be used as an accessible means of egress (and provides the requirements for that use), but it does not require the elevator to comply with the requirements for an occupant evacuation elevator.

 

[classicT]

Ty J.:

Two things:

1. Section 1009.2.1 applies to buildings 5+ stories (i.e., 4 stories above the level of exit discharge).
2. Section 1009.2.1 requires an elevator to be used as an accessible means of egress (and provides the requirements for that use), but it does not require the elevator to comply with the requirements for an occupant evacuation elevator.

Regarding your two points:

1. Agree, including the level of exit discharge was an oversight. Good call, thanks for the reminder.
2. I must disagree due to the language of Section 3008.1, which specifies "... elevators [that] are to be used for occupant self-evacuation during fires...". If an elevator is a required component of a means of egress (per 1009.2.1), is it not intended to be used for evacuation during a fire? What is the intent of this MOE if not for evacuation?

 

[Ryan Schultz]

Per the recent site photo below, it looks like the aggregate penetration is greater than 144sqin.--thus the reason, I assume, the inspector required a 2hr soffit/chase in the basement below.

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Another question, per 714.4.1, do those cables need to be steel, ferrous or copper conduits rather than Romex?

If they stay Romex I assume, per 713.4, we need a 1hr shaft up through the 3 stories of TypeVB, R-2, correct?

Thanks, Ryan

 

[RLGA]

Regarding your two points:

1. Agree, including the level of exit discharge was an oversight. Good call, thanks for the reminder.
2. I must disagree due to the language of Section 3008.1, which specifies "... elevators [that] are to be used for occupant self-evacuation during fires...". If an elevator is a required component of a means of egress (per 1009.2.1), is it not intended to be used for evacuation during a fire? What is the intent of this MOE if not for evacuation?

I know we have somewhat hijacked this thread, so I apologize, but it is important to clarify this point if this is the thinking of other individuals.

Section 1009.2.1 states that the elevator is to comply with section 1009.4--not 3008.1. Section 1009.4 requires standby power and Section 3008 requires more restrictive standby power requirements. Section 1009.4 requires the elevator to be accessed by an area of refuge (with exceptions), but Section 3008 requires that the elevators must be accessed via an elevator lobby with no exceptions. Additionally, Section 3008 requires a sprinkler system throughout and an emergency voice/alarm communication system, which means every building 5 or more stories must be sprinkled and have an EVACS regardless of construction type or occupancy (Which leads to the question: why have Exception 2 to Section 1009.4.2 if a sprinkler system is required?).

It just doesn't make sense to require a building to have all of these upgraded requirements just for an elevator to be used as an accessible means of egress.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread discussion...

 

[RLGA]

Per the recent site photo below, it looks like the aggregate penetration is greater than 144sqin.--thus the reason, I assume, the inspector required a 2hr soffit/chase in the basement below.

---

Another question, per 714.4.1, do those cables need to be steel, ferrous or copper conduits rather than Romex?

If they stay Romex I assume, per 713.4, we need a 1hr shaft up through the 3 stories of TypeVB, R-2, correct?

Thanks, Ryan

The 144 sq. in. area limitation only applies as an exception to using a through-penetration firestop system or a method tested as part of the fire-rated assembly. If you use an approved fire stop system, there is no limitation.

 

[e hilton]

Just get a can of the orange foam from home depot and everything will be ok.

 

[Ryan Schultz]

The 144 sq. in. area limitation only applies as an exception to using a through-penetration firestop system or a method tested as part of the fire-rated assembly. If you use an approved fire stop system, there is no limitation.

Nice, that mentally unlocked it for me.

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So back to the requirement of the chase/soffit in the S-2 (Type 1B) basement--one would assume the inspector did not think these penetrations had the appropriate fire stop system, and thus required the 2hr chase/soffit in the basement below.