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Some help please. Mixing, bottling, and storing alcohol

Steve Simon

Registered User
Joined
Mar 21, 2020
Messages
8
Location
Texas
Before I go to my FPE I want to check on my assumptions. All comments are appreciated. Here is my situation:

THE BUILDING
I am remodeling a 10,000 sf old airplane hanger. The building was built with CMU walls around the perimeter to 10' then steel to the roof with siding from 10' up to the roof (the roof starts at 28' at the perimeter and goes to 32' in the center. The floor is concrete and roof is metal (space A)

Adjacent to this building they built a new area that connects to this building, like a "lean to" if you will. The wall that is up against this building is CMU. And the roof is only 12' tall with a concrete floor. The space is roughly 20 x 80. (space B)

Space A and B are both to be sprinklered.

Question 1 - I would think this is a III B structure correct?

STORING
We are storing in space A pallet racks above 16' with finished alcohol bottles in totes. We will use ESFR heads.

Question 2 - Is this area is F1 or F2?

ADMIN AREA

Inside this area in space A will be an office area, bathrooms, and break room.

Question 3 - From what I read the office walls only need to be 1 hr. rated as they are sprinklered even though they are sharing to an open area with the pallet racks filled with bottled alcohol. Should I install a demising wall separating the pallet racks from the admin area? Would a 1 hr. ceiling help instead of a suspended ceiling?

MIXING AREA A and BLENDING AREA B

There will be a pumping and blending area. They bring in 190 proof alcohol in 55 gallon drums (4 at a time). In area A I have allocated about 300 sf for the pumping area. From here theyt will pump liquids into 2,000 gallon holding tanks through the CMU wall into space B to be blended and then they are pumped into the bottling line. I am separating the 55 gallon drum area by putting it into space A and pumping it through the wall to space B where the holding tanks and bottling line will be (the other side of the wall into the area separated by CMU.

I am considering the holding tanks in space B as an H-3 area and since the bottling line is part of this operation I would say it is H-3 also.

Do I need to demise the storage tanks form the bottling line or are they considered 1 operation? I can easily put a wall up between the tanks and bottling line.

Do I need to put walls around the mixing area in space A where the 55 gallon totes are brought in? This mixing area as of now is open with a 6" curb around it for containment. The pallet racks are 25' away with no separation and the admin area is 20' away which will have a 1 hr. rated wall system. Does the first pumping area need walls?

"Blessed is he who helps a 'brother' here"! :)
 
Is this building in an incorporated city or county area????



"""" pallet racks above 16' with finished alcohol bottles in totes""""

1. Define tote

2. After fifteen feet you are high piled, than goes to how many sq ft of storage above 15 feet????

Is this area is F1 or F2?

3. S-1


I am considering the holding tanks in space B as an H-3 area and since the bottling line is part of this operation I would say it is H-3 also.

4. tank area may be H also


Sounds like pass time to get the FPE!!!!
 
Is this building in an incorporated city or county area????



"""" pallet racks above 16' with finished alcohol bottles in totes""""

1. Define tote

2. After fifteen feet you are high piled, than goes to how many sq ft of storage above 15 feet????

Is this area is F1 or F2?

3. S-1


I am considering the holding tanks in space B as an H-3 area and since the bottling line is part of this operation I would say it is H-3 also.

4. tank area may be H also


Sounds like pass time to get the FPE!!!!
Is this building in an incorporated city or county area????

I am not sure what a tote is here. I know they are brought in in totes. plastic totes with a wire support. I may have erred. On the pallet racks they may just be shrink wrapped.

S1? (Why didn't I think of that).

Yes, I need a FPE, but I think I can layout the walls. Just making sure the ratings.

"""" pallet racks above 16' with finished alcohol bottles in totes""""

1. Define tote

2. After fifteen feet you are high piled, than goes to how many sq ft of storage above 15 feet????

Is this area is F1 or F2?

3. S-1


I am considering the holding tanks in space B as an H-3 area and since the bottling line is part of this operation I would say it is H-3 also.

4. tank area may be H also


Sounds like pass time to get the FPE!!!!

564, member: 49"]Is this building in an incorporated city or county area????



"""" pallet racks above 16' with finished alcohol bottles in totes""""

1. Define tote

2. After fifteen feet you are high piled, than goes to how many sq ft of storage above 15 feet????

Is this area is F1 or F2?

3. S-1


I am considering the holding tanks in space B as an H-3 area and since the bottling line is part of this operation I would say it is H-3 also.

4. tank area may be H also


Sounds like pass time to get the FPE!!!![/QUOTE]
 
564, member: 49"]Is this building in an incorporated city or county area????



"""" pallet racks above 16' with finished alcohol bottles in totes""""

1. Define tote

2. After fifteen feet you are high piled, than goes to how many sq ft of storage above 15 feet????

Is this area is F1 or F2?

3. S-1


I am considering the holding tanks in space B as an H-3 area and since the bottling line is part of this operation I would say it is H-3 also.

4. tank area may be H also


Sounds like pass time to get the FPE!!!!
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, my answer above did not post right (newby issues).

They bring the alcohol in in plastic totes with a wire wrap. On the pallets they may just be shrink wrapped.

S-1? I guess so. Duh! :)

Yes, a FPE will be called in, but I am laying out walls and think I am good to go.
 

Sorry, my answer above did not post right (newby issues).

They bring the alcohol in in plastic totes with a wire wrap. On the pallets they may just be shrink wrapped.

S-1? I guess so. Duh! :)

Yes, a FPE will be called in, but I am laying out walls and think I am good to go.[/QUOTE]


SO the big 120 gallons to 550 gallons??? Still have not figured those things out, and luckily will not have to !!


You might not be able to store totes 16 feet high.


Would let the FPE talk first, before you lay out walls.
 
Lucky for you

Austin has the great Stookey!!!!

Why yes we do! Other than the fact he can be a pain he is really a good guy. I have known him a long time as he is also on the floor with the Building reviewers.
 
I have nothing to offer towards your questions. I did inspect a distribution warehouse that had pallet racks loaded with bottled alcohol. From wine to whiskey. The pallet racks had shelves spaced closer than usual and each shelf had a row of sprinkler heads.

I figured that the shelves were spaced closer due to the cases of alcohol being cardboard and therefor not amenable to stacking 6' high on a pallet. But what do I know.
 
Last edited:
Why yes we do! Other than the fact he can be a pain he is really a good guy. I have known him a long time as he is also on the floor with the Building reviewers.


Well since you have been in the business for awhile, I can tell you straight

You have to many variables going on to even answer walls and occupancy type,


Please do keep coming back

Wait a few day’s and you will likely get more answers
 
Well since you have been in the business for awhile, I can tell you straight

You have to many variables going on to even answer walls and occupancy type,


Please do keep coming back

Wait a few day’s and you will likely get more answers

Yes - a lot of variables.
 
You have to be a forum supporting person,,, to upload direct

If you can make a simple floor plan of this a link,, and post the link

Might help get some answers

Thanks. I may see Stookey Monday or Tuesday first IF they are coming in to the office this week. Otherwise I may do this.
 
Might apply
Ifc

3404.3.5.2 Storage Pile Heights

Containers having less than a 30-gallon (114 L) capacity which contain Class I or II liquids shall not be stacked more than 3 feet (914.4 mm) or two containers high, whichever is greater, unless stacked on fixed shelving or otherwise satisfactorily secured. Containers of Class I or II liquids having a capacity of 30 gallons (114 L) or more shall not be stored more than one container high. Containers shall be stored in an upright position.
 
Still trying to decipher

“finished alcohol bottles in totes”

So is this finished product?? Small bottles in a holding container “tote”

Or large capacity liquid tote??

Tote means Tote

What will the alcohol originally come to the site in??? And how big is that container???

Or are they making alcohol on site??
 
Still trying to decipher

“finished alcohol bottles in totes”

So is this finished product?? Small bottles in a holding container “tote”

Or large capacity liquid tote??

Tote means Tote

What will the alcohol originally come to the site in??? And how big is that container???

Or are they making alcohol on site??

REPLY.............

They distill the alcohol in another site. It is shipped to this site for bottling and storing. It is shipped to this facility in 250 gallon plastic or wooden containers (totes).

There are 3 basic areas in the main part of the 10,000 sf area of this facility in regards to how the proposed spaces are to be used. Depending on many factors these areas may need to have a physical separation from each other by “the use” of the areas. These areas include:

1. The storage rack area.

2. The Admin area.

3. The pumping, blending, bottling area (which may be broken down into sub areas).

The liquid is brought into this main area. In this warehouse area are going to be an Admin area, the pallet racks, and the pumping area. There is another 1,000 sf space adjacent to this space that has an existing CMU wall and will house the mixing area and bottling area.

The mixing tanks are 2,000 gallons each and there are 6 of them. The liquid then is pumped to the bottling line. From there it is stored on the pallet racks over 12' high.

The building of course will be sprinklered (ESFR heads).

These are the questions I need a FPE, Fire Marshall, or a more experienced architect to answer for me. Not sure how to repay the favor.

1. How are the pallet racks and pumping area rated as they are in the main 10,000 sf area along with Admin area.
2. Does the pumping area need to have walls or is that area compatible with the pallet rack area according to table 508.4?
3. Does the pumping area take on the rating of the mixing area if it is hard piped together?
4. Does a 1 hour rated wall system, with a 1 hour rated sheetrock ceiling, along with a dedicated egress hallway (1 hr.), suffice for the Admin area?
5. What is the rating of the mixing area and bottling area and are they the same rating if they are hard piped together as 1 operation?
6. Is a wall needed between the mixing and bottling area?
7. Does an increase in proposed quantities effect the rating in any area?
8. If a tanker truck pulls up does that side of the building need a special wall rating?
9. Does there need to be a parapet of 8’ vertical above the existing wall on the building for a tanker?
10. Does the bottling line separation need an 8’ parapet between it and the Admin side if the CMU only goes up 8' and the ceiling is at 11'?

Any answers are helpful!

I may become a forum supporting person if I need to upload the floorplan.
.
 
Wow like I said a lot of variables

My not looking at the book answers

1.How are the pallet racks and pumping area rated as they are in the main 10,000 sf area along with Admin area.


I am thinking you are looking at Class I flammable liquid.

With the quantity of base product/ totes needed,, more than likely a flammable liquid warehouse for storage.

Or Store Room



Once again you may only be allowed one tote high.

If flam warehouse, whatever rating required between B and it. Take wall to roof. Than you should not have to worry about office ceiling.




2. Does the pumping area need to have walls or is that area compatible with the pallet rack area according to table 508.4?

It sounds like the entire rest of the building is an H.


3. Does the pumping area take on the rating of the mixing area if it is hard piped together?

See 2


4. Does a 1 hour rated wall system, with a 1 hour rated sheetrock ceiling, along with a dedicated egress hallway (1 hr.), suffice for the Admin area?

See 1


5. What is the rating of the mixing area and bottling area and are they the same rating if they are hard piped together as 1 operation?

I am thinking H.

6. Is a wall needed between the mixing and bottling area?

Might as well make it the same room, and more than likely H.


7. Does an increase in proposed quantities effect the rating in any area?

I am thinking you are over allowed quantities no matter what.

8. If a tanker truck pulls up does that side of the building need a special wall rating?

I would say no.

9. Does there need to be a parapet of 8’ vertical above the existing wall on the building for a tanker?

No

10. Does the bottling line separation need an 8’ parapet between it and the Admin side if the CMU only goes up 8' and the ceiling is at 11'?


No


Yep I think Stookey is your perfect person for this
 
Last edited:
  1. Might apply
    Ifc

    3404.3.5.2 Storage Pile Heights

    Containers having less than a 30-gallon (114 L) capacity which contain Class I or II liquids shall not be stacked more than 3 feet (914.4 mm) or two containers high, whichever is greater, unless stacked on fixed shelving or otherwise satisfactorily secured. Containers of Class I or II liquids having a capacity of 30 gallons (114 L) or more shall not be stored more than one container high. Containers shall be stored in an upright position.

    #16Yesterday at 5:21 PM
 
Mixing room

5705.1 Scope

Dispensing, use, mixing and handling of flammable liquids shall be in accordance with Section 5703 and this section. Tank vehicle and tank car loading and unloading and other special operations shall be in accordance with Section 5706.



5705.3.5.3 Quantities Exceeding Limits for Control Areas

Quantities exceeding the maximum allowable quantity per control area indicated in Sections 5705.3.5.1 and 5705.3.5.2 shall be in accordance with the following:

1. For open systems, indoor use, dispensing and mixing of flammable and combustible liquids shall be within a room or building complying with the International Building Code and Sections 5705.3.7.1 through 5705.3.7.5.

2. For closed systems, indoor use, dispensing and mixing of flammable and combustible liquids shall be within a room or building complying with the International Building Code and Sections 5705.3.7 through 5705.3.7.4 and Section 5705.3.7.6.





5705.3.7.1 Construction, Location and Fire Protection

Rooms or buildings classified in accordance with the International Building Code as Group H-2 or H-3 occupancies based on use, dispensing or mixing of flammable or combustible liquids shall be constructed in accordance with the International Building Code.
 
REPLY.............

They distill the alcohol in another site. It is shipped to this site for bottling and storing. It is shipped to this facility in 250 gallon plastic or wooden containers (totes).

There are 3 basic areas in the main part of the 10,000 sf area of this facility in regards to how the proposed spaces are to be used. Depending on many factors these areas may need to have a physical separation from each other by “the use” of the areas. These areas include:

1. The storage rack area.

2. The Admin area.

3. The pumping, blending, bottling area (which may be broken down into sub areas).

The liquid is brought into this main area. In this warehouse area are going to be an Admin area, the pallet racks, and the pumping area. There is another 1,000 sf space adjacent to this space that has an existing CMU wall and will house the mixing area and bottling area.

The mixing tanks are 2,000 gallons each and there are 6 of them. The liquid then is pumped to the bottling line. From there it is stored on the pallet racks over 12' high.

The building of course will be sprinklered (ESFR heads).

These are the questions I need a FPE, Fire Marshall, or a more experienced architect to answer for me. Not sure how to repay the favor.

1. How are the pallet racks and pumping area rated as they are in the main 10,000 sf area along with Admin area.
2. Does the pumping area need to have walls or is that area compatible with the pallet rack area according to table 508.4?
3. Does the pumping area take on the rating of the mixing area if it is hard piped together?
4. Does a 1 hour rated wall system, with a 1 hour rated sheetrock ceiling, along with a dedicated egress hallway (1 hr.), suffice for the Admin area?
5. What is the rating of the mixing area and bottling area and are they the same rating if they are hard piped together as 1 operation?
6. Is a wall needed between the mixing and bottling area?
7. Does an increase in proposed quantities effect the rating in any area?
8. If a tanker truck pulls up does that side of the building need a special wall rating?
9. Does there need to be a parapet of 8’ vertical above the existing wall on the building for a tanker?
10. Does the bottling line separation need an 8’ parapet between it and the Admin side if the CMU only goes up 8' and the ceiling is at 11'?

Any answers are helpful!

I may become a forum supporting person if I need to upload the floorplan.
.



So what is the latest update??
 
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