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Submitting Plans for a pavilion without architect seal

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rambo1224

Registered User
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
10
Location
NJ
I had used a company online to design an outdoor pavilion. They provided me simple plans on a pdf file (no seal or signature). When I submitted them to the township (i live in NJ) the subcode official came back with this:

"The submitted plans are required to be signed & sealed by a New Jersey Licensed Architect and conform to International Residential Code 2015NJ. The permit will be in my hold bin until received."

I have tried to contact the designer to find out about providing me a seal, but they have not responded. Other architects want to re-do everything from scratch in order to provide their seal (lots of $). I did see that a homeowner can submit plans without a seal, so I'm wondering if I can just redraw these and resubmit (its a pretty basic design). Will that work? Any other options?
 
Welcome, hope that you find your answer here on the forum.

That said, I think that you will need to speak with your local BO. Most residential structures do not require design by a registered professional. It is therefore somewhat odd that it is being required. Perhaps the design is non-prescriptive or the local AHJ requires pavilions and other detached structures without walls to be designed.
 
NJ might require all plans to be sealed. Or your pavilion is non-prescriptive (is not designed exactly per the NJ code requirements in other words with studs, wall bracing, foundations, etc.), I never saw a pavilion that did.
 
Maybe the word pavilion is causing the problem. I don’t think of a pavilion as being a residential structure, so the “homeowner submittal” clause may not be applicable. Is it a gazebo or other garden building?
 
If the online designer will not provide properly signed drawings then demand a refund. You may be due a complete refund depending on state law. For example in California even if an unlicensed contractor had done considerable work you do not have to pay them.

You can also report this violation of state licensing laws to the State board that licenses Architects.

I believe you will find that the licensing laws, which deal with such things as sealing of drawings, are a function of the State. Local jurisdictions may interpret those laws in an attempt to decide what applications require a licensed architect or engineer but the final authority is the State licensing board. A local jurisdiction that attempted to license/regulate architects without explicit permission from the state legislature would be in violation of antitrust laws. Per the US Supreme Court home rule does not apply in these cases.

My impression is that the IRC doesn't address pavilions and that they would be subject to the locally adopted version of the IBC.
 
Mark K said:
If the online designer will not provide properly signed drawings then demand a refund..
Click to expand...
Business law 101: caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. If the plans were advertised as “not stamped” then the buyer got what they paid for.
 
I spoke to the twsp Sub code official, and he said I can't submit the plans as a homeowner because the pavilion has a raised roof. He did say that an approval/seal can be done by an engineer (as long as they are licensed in NJ). The plans I have are pretty basic as the entire structure (except for the roof and roof support beams) are done with concrete block (I think there are 6 pages to the plans and it cost me $500 to get them done). Any idea what it would cost for engineer to seal? Any takers licensed in NJ?
 
Most Engineers and Architects are not going to sign someone else's Plans and Calculations.
When they seal and sign the plans, the design professional is putting his/her license out there. Some states Prohibit a licensed design professional (Engineers and Architects) from signing plans they did not prepare.
It is called selling you license, a violation of most Buisness and Professions Codes..
 
Its 300 sqft. I get that engineer + architects dont want to sign someone else's plans, but there are actually sites that promote it
https://pe-reviewandseal.com/

I wish there was some way as the home owner I could get around needing the seal for something that is such a small structure. If the raised roof is the issue, maybe I change it to a gazebo style and just re-draw them.
 
rambo1224 said:
Its 300 sqft. I get that engineer + architects dont want to sign someone else's plans, but there are actually sites that promote it
https://pe-reviewandseal.com/

I wish there was some way as the home owner I could get around needing the seal for something that is such a small structure. If the raised roof is the issue, maybe I change it to a gazebo style and just re-draw them.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's not legal in most states....

If that came across my desk, it may just find its way to the state licensing board.
 
Ok.. So can anyone give me an idea how I can get past this? Can I re-draw the plans as a homeowner and just remove the roof?
 
mark handler said:
Most Engineers and Architects are not going to sign someone else's Plans and Calculations.
When they seal and sign the plans, the design professional is putting his/her license out there. Some states Prohibit a licensed design professional (Engineers and Architects) from signing plans they did not prepare.
It is called selling you license, a violation of most Buisness and Professions Codes..
Click to expand...

I get plans all the time for chain stores from a out of state architect company and a in state seal on it. How do I know who really designed it?
 
"I get plans all the time for chain stores from a out of state architect company and a in state seal on it. How do I know who really designed it?"

Most architectural firms have architects who are licensed in several states.
 
Rick18071 said:
I get plans all the time for chain stores from a out of state architect company and a in state seal on it. How do I know who really designed it?
Click to expand...
See this thread for further discussion on how this works.

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.co...unicipal-plan-review.25894/page-4#post-207146

For WA, this is established in RCW 18.08.370 (paraphrased below)

RCW 18.08.370 (ARCHITECTS)
Issuance of certificates of registration—Seal, use.
(3) An architect may seal and sign technical submissions under the following conditions:
(a) An architect may seal and sign technical submissions that are: Prepared by the architect; prepared by the architect's regularly employed subordinates; prepared in part by an individual or firm under a direct subcontract with the architect; or prepared in collaboration with an architect who is licensed in a jurisdiction recognized by the board, provided there is a contractual agreement between the architects.​
 
Right... that is basically what the existing plans have (I don't see how I can attach the PDF file to the thread for you all to see). If the roof is the reason why I can't submit these myself. Can I just change the roofing to an open pergula style (just beams across the top with no plywood roof)? Is that still considered a raised roof?
 
Ty J. said:
prepared in collaboration with an architect who is licensed in a jurisdiction recognized by the board, provided there is a contractual agreement between the architects.
Click to expand...
You are assuming the original drawings were done by a licensed person
 
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