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Superior Wall question

L

LINY11961

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
8
Hey guys I need some feed back with this. Atached you see a drawing of a grade level basement entrance. The foundaton is Superior walls 8"2" high. I cannot find anything in the code that address these walls. My permit , under 2006 IRC R403.1 says "or approved structure systems" and R403.1.4.1. says wall must extend below frost line. The company tells me there are two ways to get the footing below frost line, about 48", Bradford Co. PA. Either put a 10"2" wall where exposed and excavate down to 48" , put 24" 2b stone and the longer wall on top. Or put a 48" frost wall below grade and your regular 8'2" wall on top. I was told builders do it both ways since the additional 24" stone for the 10"2" walls is considered a footer sub base. I cannot find anything in the code that deals with this. So, do I "assume" both ways are to code since I am sure both methods have been insp. in the past these and these are the manufacturers instructions?? All the people I talk to give a different answer but I would like to see what the code has to say! What are your feelings?Thanks!

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Welcome to the board. Others are far more qualified than I to comment on prescriptive methods. However, does the wall system have an ICC ES Evaluation report? The ES report would give complete criteria for the installation of that specific system.
 
I think either method would suffice. The foundation plans from Superior have an engineer's seal on them, so it shouldn't be an issue.
 
This product is not addressed by the IRC. An engineer is needed. The evaluation report states that the system needs to be designed by an engineer.

I would be careful about where to use this system since it should be more sensitive to differential settlement and easier to damage than a cast-in-place concrete or masonry wall.
 
I don't know that those concerns are based upon any factual evidence..

I have a Superior foundation in my own home

8000-9000psi concrete steel reinforced... mnnnn

I don't know how you'd damage it in the course of normal construction.
 
Mark K said:
This product is not addressed by the IRC. An engineer is needed. The evaluation report states that the system needs to be designed by an engineer.I would be careful about where to use this system since it should be more sensitive to differential settlement and easier to damage than a cast-in-place concrete or masonry wall.
Click to expand...
An engineer, "maybe", depends on the AHJ and their alternate means approval process.
 
The company that sells and/installs the system should be able to provide documentation.
 
I would verify the soil loading capacity though. I am not familiar with this system but if it comes engineered there must be some disclaimer or qualification about what the soil type and prep would be expected.
 
I'm building on one now, we used the drained, gravel filled trench for the "frost wall" at the garage entrance. I do have another, set up similar, about 5 years old that has done fine. Follow the instructions and they perform well. One thing I will inquire about on the next one... we excavated a dead level bench, then covered it with levelled gravel. Next time I would like to pitch the excavation a couple of inches to daylight and level the gravel, to aid subslab drainage. You definitely don't want a negative pitch back into the hole. I don't expect trouble and may be overthinking it. Best concrete I've put a hole through.
 
The reason for the concern is because:

• Since we are dealing with precast units the walls are limited in their ability to accommodate differential settlement without opening up the joints between panels.

• When you place the walls on gravel you need to be more careful regarding compaction of gravel.

• While a 1.5 inch face shell will do ok in most situations it is more likely to be damaged than an 8” masonry or concrete wall.

Based on the recommendation for calculations in the ICC-ES evaluation report I do not believe that you can avoid having an engineer. If there was no design professional involved and their was a problem a claim could be made that the plan checker performed engineering services in determining that the product can be used.
 
The OP is in NY; Superior will furnish foundation plans stamped by an engineer. He is also in a 110 or 120mph wind zone.

I'm no engineer.. but i think the bolts between the panels will have a greater yield strength than rebar in a footing.

If the correct gravel is used, it doesn't compact all that much. You could probably compact "undisturbed soil" more than the gravel.

Versus a masonry wall, the face of the SUperior Wall will be thicker than the face of the block-- and stronger.

Again, just speaking from personal experience.. I don't know how the numbers actually work out, but I don't see the concerns as any more pivotal than those of a traditional foundation.
 
All Superior wall systems are engineered. They do sit on a bed of gravel not a conventional footing as stated earlier. We see them a lot here and I have also built on the, in the past. Nice system in my opinion. They do need to get below the frost line though.
 
Thanks for all your help guys! I know the Superior drawings will be stamped and my architect will look at them also but I get paranoid and double and triple check! The washed 2b stone will be put in at the lifts they recommend and I'll run a plate over it even though Superior will do it again.

DRP I like the idea with a drain pitch to daylight. I always do that once I leave the footer area but now I'll run a transit with it right from the get go. I want to put the dimpled water proof Delta fabric on there also cos I am on a slope with a diversion ditch maybe 200 feet upland. People still resist the new technology here but we have all seen poured walls that crack too and these are put up in less than a day ! TIM NY glad you are happy with your walls, now I can relax a bit............
 
The factory engineer will stamp the plans, since they are project specifically designed. AND in 2009 IRC, the criteria for the pre-cast foundations (I suspect written in/pushed thru by Superior Foundations), is in there.

It really is a good foundation system...

Since they are project specific, you'll need to provide a soil report (particularly if there is questionable soil).
 
We have had multiple problems with Superior Walls pushing inward in 5 areas that caused them to deflect inward:

1) Modular homes that install anchor bolts on the sill plate but lack the additional strapping required.

2) Contractor not telling Superior Walls where the interior basement stairwell opening will be when on an outside wall before they design the foundation.

3) Sill plates joints not offset a minimum of 48" from panel joints. (which is why we now require a sill plate inspection before they set a modular or start framing the platform)

4) Improper gable end blocking.

5) Walls not designed for the actual amount of unbalanced backfill used on the site.
 
Thanks guys! Jar 546... Yeah I read in the Superior book about the sill place splice locations, makes good building sense even if it wasn't required. Interesting about the stairwell header procedure. I supplied Superior with all the drawings they need and elevations, so I hope there are no surprises latter! I printed their builder gudeline booklet and checklists and I can tell it will be wore out by the time I am done!!
 
Superior Walls frost walls for daylight basements.

LINY11961, I work for Superior Walls of America, and I am a certified residential building inspector in the state of PA. Both methods are acceptable. You can sit an 8'2" wall on a 48" frost wall or you can sit a partially burried 10' 0" wall on top of the correct depth of clean crushed stone per Superior Walls specifications. The code doesn't directly address these configurations of precast walls specifically. It says in R402.3 Precast Concrete that Approved precast concrete foundations shall be designed and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code and the manufacturer's installation instructions. The Superior Walls builder guideline booklet is the closest thing you will find to manufacture's installation instructions and as you correctly noted code section R403.1.4.1. says foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be protected from frost - must extend below frost line. If you want to discuss further you may contact me directly or call the local sales representative. I can be reached by email at ehelderman@superiorwalls.com. You can find your local representative at our rep locator at www.superiorwalls.com. Ed-in-PA

LINY11961 said:
Hey guys I need some feed back with this. Atached you see a drawing of a grade level basement entrance. The foundaton is Superior walls 8"2" high. I cannot find anything in the code that address these walls. My permit , under 2006 IRC R403.1 says "or approved structure systems" and R403.1.4.1. says wall must extend below frost line. The company tells me there are two ways to get the footing below frost line, about 48", Bradford Co. PA. Either put a 10"2" wall where exposed and excavate down to 48" , put 24" 2b stone and the longer wall on top. Or put a 48" frost wall below grade and your regular 8'2" wall on top. I was told builders do it both ways since the additional 24" stone for the 10"2" walls is considered a footer sub base. I cannot find anything in the code that deals with this. So, do I "assume" both ways are to code since I am sure both methods have been insp. in the past these and these are the manufacturers instructions?? All the people I talk to give a different answer but I would like to see what the code has to say! What are your feelings?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
Welcome Ed.

Not specific to Superior, but, in general, does the code permit installations "in accordnace with the manufacturer's installation instructions" or only when a product is somehow otherwise listed? What is the quality check for "manufacturer's installation instructions"?
 
Get a copy of Superior's installation manual. It should answer all you questions. One thing that seems unusual in their manual is that they don't want the footing drain in the bottom of the frost wall area. They show it dropping in at one end (High Point) and stubbed out the other end (Low Point). Any water is supposed to flow through the gravel and out the other end. I was told by them that they had problems with the pipe crushing at the bottom of the gravel frost footings. Also make sure where floor joist run parallel to the foudation that they place the required blocking.

docgj
 
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