• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Superior walls

Easttndeveloper

Easttndeveloper

Registered User
Joined
May 27, 2022
Messages
9
Location
Tn
Hi, im new to the forum. I recently had superior walls of east tn install some walls for me on a development we are starting and im less than pleased and looking for some guidance, they installed the walls and in 2 different locations installed them inside out, they have the stud side facing the backfill and the exterior side facing the interior living space. Now i hired a 3rd party engineer that stated that this is the incorrect method and the walls will fail because the rebar is now closest to backfill instead of furthest from backfill. We cut into the wall to verify and there is only 1 rebar per stud and it most definitely is closest to backfill so all the backfill which is 9 ft of gravel because it is where the garage is located will be pushing directly against the sheathing which is only 1 3/4 thick concrete. The manufacturer is saying the walls are ok and will not help us in anyway to correct the issue. Thanks in advance.
 
bill1952 said:
There should have been drawings. If not installed per the drawings, it's lawyer time.
Click to expand...
Well there was drawings, but there was an oversight or something because they have the walls being used as they were not intended to be used, structurally they were built to be backfilled against the exterior and they have the walls were we are backfilling against the interior at 9 for high. There was drawings but the drawings don't show me that's the intention when I'm signing off.
 
@ ( ) @

Easttndeveloper,

IMO, it is time for you to take your contract with
"Superior Walls of East Tn" and go discuss the
matter with an experienced construction attorney.

We cannot provide you with the legal guidance
that you need.

@ ( ) @
 
north star said:
@ ( ) @

Easttndeveloper,

IMO, it is time for you to take your contract with
"Superior Walls of East Tn" and go discuss the
matter with an experienced construction attorney.

We cannot provide you with the legal guidance
that you need.

@ ( ) @
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply, im not looking for legal guidance, just seeing if anyone has any experience or knowledge on the situation with the walls being backfilled on the interior side of the wall, because the gravel will push on the sheathing and the studs are not supporting the sheathing because they are on the same side of the sheathing as the gravel.
 
If the walls were not installed per the drawings, then you have a good case to have it remedied at no cost.

As far as structurally sound or not, I trust your engineer. If Superior Walls says it's ok, demand their engineer put their seal on the corrected drawings.
 
bill1952 said:
If the walls were not installed per the drawings, then you have a good case to have it remedied at no cost.

As far as structurally sound or not, I trust your engineer. If Superior Walls says it's ok, demand their engineer put their seal on the corrected drawings.
Click to expand...
Well here's the issue with that
bill1952 said:
If the walls were not installed per the drawings, then you have a good case to have it remedied at no cost.

As far as structurally sound or not, I trust your engineer. If Superior Walls says it's ok, demand their engineer put their seal on the corrected drawings.
Click to expand...
Well their engineer did put a stamp on it, however of course i would assume their engineer thats in house on payroll would stamp it, thats why we hired a 3rd party engineer which could have told us it was fine but he didnt he laughed at the design and said it would fail. We dont want to take a chance on backfilling and the walls fail and kill someone and we would be going against a 3rd party engineer if we just did backfill as superior says.
 
I'm not clear if sealed Superior Wall drawings show it as it was installed. Thats the key in my opinion. I can't believe backfilling against stud side is acceptable.
 
It doesn't specify but even if that was the casethe walls should have been designed specifically for that application and nothing like that is in the drawing you sign off on. That's something your trusting them to do right because I'm no engineer.
 
Easttndeveloper said:
Well their engineer did put a stamp on it, however of course i would assume their engineer thats in house on payroll would stamp it,
Click to expand...
Bad assumption. His professional liability should trump any loyalty to his employer.

Reading all the posts … you’re not paying attention to the free, cheap, web-based advice. Call a lawyer you deals with construction.
 
e hilton said:
Bad assumption. His professional liability should trump any loyalty to his employer.

Reading all the posts … you’re not paying attention to the free, cheap, web-based advice. Call a lawyer you deals with construction.
Click to expand...
Thats why i hired a 3rd party engineer, now we have conflicting answers. I have hired a lawyer that is looking into the situation butthe answers im getting from everyone are getting off subject, im not asking for legal advice as im leaving that to me attorney, im asking if anyone has had a situation where they have or had dealt with backfilling and or knowledge about this particular situation. Im trying to figure out how to upload pics.
 
Based on the manufacturer’s literature, inside fill conditions are limited to 36” of unbalanced fill. By their own criteria, the wall is probably going to be overloaded when filled for an entire story on the inside.
 
This is correct that's my argument, even we ask them that their in house engineer stamped them with full 9 feet of backfill for some reason though, which is why we went for a 3rd party engineer.
 
I suggest skipping the East Tennessee franchisee and consulting the system owner, Superior Walls, apparently of New Holland, PA.

Per ESR-1662 at the Superior Walls website (corporate, not the East Tennessee), https://www.superiorwalls.com/api/getFile/409:

"Superior Walls Xi and Xi Plus Precast Concrete Foundation walls consist of 1 3/4-inch-thick (44 mm) exterior face, monolithically cast with 10 1/4-inch-wide (260 mm) top and bottom bond beams, and 2 1/4-inch-by-7 1/2-inch (57 mm by 190.5 mm) concrete studs at 24 inches (610 mm) on center."

Per Superior Walls Corporate Code Inspector's Checklist https://www.superiorwalls.com/api/getFile/413:

"Verify inside fill conditions: Must not exceed 36" more inside fill than outside fill, unless the panel was specifically manufactured for this application."

I think you'll find that Corporate agrees that the walls are backwards, which should be fixed, and if not fixed, no more than 36" of backfill can go against the stud side (normally inside, but outside in this case).

I also think (hope) that Corporate convinces their franchisee and installers and anyone else involved in the reverse placement to correct the condition.

Now if Corporate has an engineer who will approve the improper installation, including that all end connections, corner connections, etc are adequate, for the life of the structure, and you get that in writing, then it would be hard to argue. Maybe I'm too much an optimist but I don't think Corporate will agree the job is done right with the walls backwards.

And if your walls aren't the ones I found the info on, disregard - this is my first post (long time lurker) and this was so wrong I just had to chime in -
 
Shipbuilder said:
I suggest skipping the East Tennessee franchisee and consulting the system owner, Superior Walls, apparently of New Holland, PA.

Per ESR-1662 at the Superior Walls website (corporate, not the East Tennessee), https://www.superiorwalls.com/api/getFile/409:

"Superior Walls Xi and Xi Plus Precast Concrete Foundation walls consist of 1 3/4-inch-thick (44 mm) exterior face, monolithically cast with 10 1/4-inch-wide (260 mm) top and bottom bond beams, and 2 1/4-inch-by-7 1/2-inch (57 mm by 190.5 mm) concrete studs at 24 inches (610 mm) on center."

Per Superior Walls Corporate Code Inspector's Checklist https://www.superiorwalls.com/api/getFile/413:

"Verify inside fill conditions: Must not exceed 36" more inside fill than outside fill, unless the panel was specifically manufactured for this application."

I think you'll find that Corporate agrees that the walls are backwards, which should be fixed, and if not fixed, no more than 36" of backfill can go against the stud side (normally inside, but outside in this case).

I also think (hope) that Corporate convinces their franchisee and installers and anyone else involved in the reverse placement to correct the condition.

Now if Corporate has an engineer who will approve the improper installation, including that all end connections, corner connections, etc are adequate, for the life of the structure, and you get that in writing, then it would be hard to argue. Maybe I'm too much an optimist but I don't think Corporate will agree the job is done right with the walls backwards.

And if your walls aren't the ones I found the info on, disregard - this is my first post (long time lurker) and this was so wrong I just had to chime in -
Click to expand...
I appreciate your input and you are 100 percent correct on the walls, i will contact corporate and let them know because your right, even if their engineer is signing off on it they should step in and say something to their franchisee because it's their name on the line. Even if it's in writing i still don't want to put anyone's life in danger so we will reinforce the walls in that section ourselves. Another company that does precast just had a wall collapse a few weeks back and killed a guy, we don't want that at all.
 
I could have misunderstood, too, but what I thought was going on was all discussion was with Superior Wall East TN, who is the actual "manufacturer" (as in they have the forms and do the pour, and based on the OP, they placed the walls, as well). East TN would then also be the "vendor" for the walls, but the walls are a proprietary design, owned and franchised by Superior Wall in New Holland, PA. New Holland would own the design authority and have engineering responsibility for the wall design. They also probably don't want to be in the news when buidlings with "their name on them" has a problem in the future.
 
Just slightly off the topic, I thought precast foundation walls enclosing a basement were required to have waterproofing. The one next door does clearly as it's on a slope so some "corners" of the waterproofing show above grade. This may have changed in later years. But would that work on the stud side?
 
Is there a building permit with inspections involved? The design shown in the ICC ESR lacks rebar ..... 5000psi concrete with synthetic fibers. When you cut into the concrete the warranty probably evaporated.

I don't think you need a lawyer for this problem. The local news station would get a kick out of this. Maybe hang a few sheets of drywall on the studs plus a picture for the camera.
 
Is there foam and wood on the outside...that is supposed to be the inside? Protection from decay and termites might be another wat to skin this cat.....
 
To recap, two of an unknown number of Superior prefabricated concrete walls were installed inside out. One side has a smooth finish and the other side has concrete studs with a metal channel for attaching drywall. When confronted, the contractor balked and the contractor's engineer says, no harm, no foul.

Unless I see pictures, I'm not willing to believe this story.


IMG_3766.JPG


IMG_3767.JPG
 
Built a few back in the day. Never heard of such a thing. Beyond the ridiculous idea of the walls being inside out, even if (big IF) they are structurally sound, there are some really logical benefits of the stud bays on the inside: Part of the reason is to add insulation (back when I used them the factory installed foam was not enough). Part of the allure of the metal stud caps is for the installation of drywall and trim. The pre-drilled holes found on the inside of the wall are for running the electrical. Don't have the time to look them up but I simply can't imagine a set of MFR instructions that would detail this. And, why only two panels? As ICE provided, there is just no detail I can imagine that would show this. I like the product, so I am really interested to know the whole story. Please keep us informed.
 
One has to wonder how many people on site saw two panels go in backwards and didn’t say anything. The foreman/supervisor especially … what was he doing?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top