"The fire marshal was just here..."

[LGreene]

I run into this all the time and it just came up again. In today's case it is a 6-story office building built in 1996. There are many doors which have electrified hardware that prevents people from exiting unless they swipe their card. The doors do unlock on fire alarm but at any other time you need to swipe your card in the reader. This is not acceptable by code and never has been.

When the security integrator hired by the building owner brought the egress issues to his attention, the building owner responded, "The fire marshal was here and said everything was fine." I don't expect the fire inspector to notice everything, or to know that the doors don't unlock unless you swipe your card, but just in general, what should the response to this statement be? I hear it ALL the time.

 

[cda]

1. there is a new fire marshal in town- sheriff lori green

2. I would be glad to set down with the fire marshal and see what code they were installed under

3. I need to research the code they were installed under and and local admendents, to give you a better answer as to why they meet or do not meet code.

4. I understand that, on the other hand they do not appear to meet code and there is a large liabilty on you. I would be glad to discuss ways to remedy the problem.

5. Sometimes the fire dept may not enforce locking devices, and it may be the building department. we can contact the ahj and find out, and what is allowed.

6. your lieing, let me see the inspection report.

just pick one that fits the occasion

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

We get the dreaded "they said" and even the occasional "you said" "all the time." Usually a quick call to the fire marshall will set things right, if not, you can use the less often recommended method of, "well when the code book says words like prohibited and "shall not," then everything is not fine."

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I like cda's list better.

 

[Doorman]

"Fire marshal says it's okay." "That's the way Jakes' Diner does it" "But the other door swings in..." As you say, I have heard resistance to compliance a hundred times.

I just provided, with extreme resistance, a cross corridor double egress pair 90 Min in the memory care unit of a health care facility in a nearby city. Who can spot some problems:

Each leaf 30" (2' 6") wide (LHR/RH... well, sort of)

Nom door height 78" (6' 6"), so net clear height, threshold to frame soffit 76-7/8" (6' 4-7/8")

Bearing hinges, steel base; 3 per door.

Rated SVR devices less bottom rod, with firebolt.

Surface mount door closer, with through bolts.

Surface mount magnets... yes that type... both doors. Hangs down about 2-3/4" from the frame soffit. These are direct bond magnets with no accommodation for connection to the exit devices, no local wall release switch, no motion sensor (either side), and these are not delay egress devices. There is a release button at the attendant station (just a little ways down the hall), and a key operated switch on each side. Oh, and the whole shootin match is NOT connected to the fire annunciation system... at all.

At first I resisted, told them I wanted nothing to do with it. The manager of the facility assured me it is okay. I put together a price offer (pretty much as listed above), with many, many comments about the assembled parts being acceptable to ANY building official anywhere. Submittal data came back, and the facility had signed off on each of the trouble areas. I asked "FROM WHOM did you get advice regarding these issues?", and he said with a dismissive wave of the hand, "Oh, don't worry so much. We already have two or three just like it in the building.".

Lori, just like your OP, this is not an isolated incident. What do we do? In my example case I elected to allow this yahoo to commit seppuku. I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about these.

 

[north star]

= =

Lori,

Are you tasked to render a compliant evaluation, ...that is,

to give factual observations of the current conditions, and

to also provide [ code ] compliant solutions?......If this a

common occurrence, sounds like you will have job security

for many, many years to come.

FWIW, ...I also like " cda's " list!

= =

 

[fatboy]

cda rocks! I've used versions of most of those also.

 

[Doorman]

cda and Papio, I can see your points. Lori and I have to look at this from the other side of the fence: We are not code compliance officers, code officials, inspectors, fire marshals... I can't (I purposely left Lori out of this, she might have the gas!) compel someone to show me inspection reports or provide code citations.

Is there some path to enlightenment or reason that we can share with our customers?

Rats! I didn't think so.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Is there some path to enlightenment or reason that we can share with our customers?

Common sense? Headline: CEO leaves swipe card and key dongle at desk where fire started when destroying BP non-compliance correspondence, forced to use executive parachute to survive.

 

[fireguy]

ASk to see the FM written report. Or call the FM. We have good relations with our FMs and discuss potential problems with them. They will often make a surprise visit to the offender. Copies of the code, circled in yellow marker also help. As noted above, see CDA's comment.

For doors, you and Lori know more than the rest of us together. You may not be the AHJ, but you have the knowledge.

 

[north star]

* * *

"Is there some path to enlightenment or reason that we can share with our customers?......Rats!I didn't think so."

Actually, you could attempt to engage your [ potential ] customers in to a discussion about the current

status of the non-compliant issues, ...give them some background about what some AHJ's positions are

regarding this [ and other ] egress issues, ...that you have some knowledge of what they typically require

and that your company can help them achieve compliance, blah, blah, blah.

Since we code officials regularly get "thrown under the bus", ...you could blame it on us for what is

required in the adopted codes.



Just sayin... !

+ + +

 

[mtlogcabin]

1. there is a new fire marshal in town- sheriff lori green2. I would be glad to set down with the fire marshal and see what code they were installed under

3. I need to research the code they were installed under and and local admendents, to give you a better answer as to why they meet or do not meet code.

4. I understand that, on the other hand they do not appear to meet code and there is a large liabilty on you. I would be glad to discuss ways to remedy the problem.

5. Sometimes the fire dept may not enforce locking devices, and it may be the building department. we can contact the ahj and find out, and what is allowed.

6. your lieing, let me see the inspection report.

just pick one that fits the occasion

7. How much did the bribe cost?

 

[cda]

7. How much did the bribe cost?

Mt

Don't tell them all the trade secrets!!!

 

[cda]

cda and Papio, I can see your points. Lori and I have to look at this from the other side of the fence: We are not code compliance officers, code officials, inspectors, fire marshals... I can't (I purposely left Lori out of this, she might have the gas!) compel someone to show me inspection reports or provide code citations.Is there some path to enlightenment or reason that we can share with our customers?

Rats! I didn't think so.

But if you know it is wrong, shouldn't you advise the customer of that?

Or, if owner hires you to install something not legal or they do not know it is legal, than the ahj comes in and says fix or remove!

Don't you think the owner will come back to you for the fix or money???

I understand you cannot force owner to provide anything, but education is the way to go

And possibly walk from some jobs

 

[LGreene]

I think Doorman just said that I have gas. I don't know how he knows this about me. Darned internet - no secrets!

Thank you all for your insight. When I'm in this situation I don't like to push the code official under the bus (AHJs are FRIENDS, not FOOD!), but that's always the building owner's excuse for why he doesn't have to listen to me (or my peeps). I like the idea of offering to call and discuss it with the AHJ.

 

[zigmark]

Lori-

I think I may faint.... Integrity.... it is really nice when someone before the building department has the nerve to tell an owner something wont work or is not code compliant. In my experience the fear of losing the job or not wanting to be the bearer of bad news prevents it from happening. Typically, the design is a long way down the path and the product has already been purchased and we end up the bad guy because no one said "Hey, I'm not sure that will work" up front and the client is vested in their idea and unwilling to change without being forced to do so.

I think we would all be rich if we had a nickle for every time we heard "I've been doing this for fifteen years","So and so didn't make me do anything", "I've never heard of that requirement" or "They don't make me do that in XXXX city/county". It's all last resort banter when the merits of the issue are not in their favor.

Stick to your guns, be politely candid with clients and I think you gain the utmost respect.

ZIG

 

[Doorman]

"But if you know it is wrong, shouldn't you advise the customer of that?" I always do. I think it is common sense to do so, being in our mutual best interest to be aware of any potential compliance or application trouble. How they proceed after advice is their choice.

"Or, if owner hires you to install something not legal or they do not know it is legal, than the ahj comes in and says fix or remove!" I agree with decline the order. I won't even offer to install something that I believe to be noncompliant in any way. Material only is a little different... what a customer chooses to do with material is up to him. I often get the request for a new fire rated door, hardware a little bit of gingerbread... oh, and one of those kick-down door holder thingies. I tell them no, I can't sell you a kick down door stop thingy with this rated assembly. They say okay, and they will write another PO for some kick down door stop thingies. I can't stop them, they are gonna do it anyway.

 

[globe trekker]

They say okay, and they will write another PO for some kick down door stop thingies.I can't stop them, they are gonna do it anyway.

True enough, but you (and others) DO have the choice not to particpate in something that

is knowingly wrong.

The idea, and actual practice of, integrity is a rare commodity. I commend those who

practice it regularly. Please keep it up!

 

[LGreene]

= =Lori,

Are you tasked to render a compliant evaluation, ...that is,

to give factual observations of the current conditions, and

to also provide [ code ] compliant solutions?......If this a

common occurrence, sounds like you will have job security

for many, many years to come.

FWIW, ...I also like " cda's " list!

= =

Usually someone is calling me to ask whether what they have been asked to provide is code-compliant. I don't have any power in the real world, but I guess I'm one of the hardware geeks that spends a lot of time reading the code books and talking online with my AHJ pals. I don't supply material any more but sometimes I specify products and have to break the news that the owner can't do what he wants to do. The other common situation is that I point out a problem to someone in an existing building I just happen to be visiting. In either case I have heard the fire marshal excuse more times than I can count.

I think I have plenty of job security...nobody seems to want my job!

 

[tmurray]

"But if you know it is wrong, shouldn't you advise the customer of that?" I always do. I think it is common sense to do so, being in our mutual best interest to be aware of any potential compliance or application trouble. How they proceed after advice is their choice."Or, if owner hires you to install something not legal or they do not know it is legal, than the ahj comes in and says fix or remove!" I agree with decline the order. I won't even offer to install something that I believe to be noncompliant in any way. Material only is a little different... what a customer chooses to do with material is up to him. I often get the request for a new fire rated door, hardware a little bit of gingerbread... oh, and one of those kick-down door holder thingies. I tell them no, I can't sell you a kick down door stop thingy with this rated assembly. They say okay, and they will write another PO for some kick down door stop thingies. I can't stop them, they are gonna do it anyway.

Not only is it common sense to advise a customer that a product won't be compliant with code, it could also leave you partially liable for any damages uncured because of the non-compliant installation. I would agree that you have no control over what happens when you are just selling product. In my experience there are two kinds of people; the ones who want to conform to codes and the ones who want to do what they want to do. You can easily find out which category someone fits in when you outline a compliance problem. If they don't ask how to fix the problem, ask what the code stipulates or start brainstorming about possible solutions they are typically in the latter group. As distributors I think your responsibility is when you think there is the possibility of a non-compliant install to inform your customer, then if they still want the product you proceed with the order. This will cover you if the AHJ catches the problem as you informed them of the problem before-hand. If you are asked to install a non-compliant product then you should flat out refuse in order to avoid possible liability.

 

[LARMGUY]

"Fire marshal says it's okay." "That's the way Jakes' Diner does it" "But the other door swings in..." As you say, I have heard resistance to compliance a hundred times.I just provided, with extreme resistance, a cross corridor double egress pair 90 Min in the memory care unit of a health care facility in a nearby city. Who can spot some problems:

Each leaf 30" (2' 6") wide (LHR/RH... well, sort of)

Nom door height 78" (6' 6"), so net clear height, threshold to frame soffit 76-7/8" (6' 4-7/8")

Bearing hinges, steel base; 3 per door.

Rated SVR devices less bottom rod, with firebolt.

Surface mount door closer, with through bolts.

Surface mount magnets... yes that type... both doors. Hangs down about 2-3/4" from the frame soffit. These are direct bond magnets with no accommodation for connection to the exit devices, no local wall release switch, no motion sensor (either side), and these are not delay egress devices. There is a release button at the attendant station (just a little ways down the hall), and a key operated switch on each side. Oh, and the whole shootin match is NOT connected to the fire annunciation system... at all.

At first I resisted, told them I wanted nothing to do with it. The manager of the facility assured me it is okay. I put together a price offer (pretty much as listed above), with many, many comments about the assembled parts being acceptable to ANY building official anywhere. Submittal data came back, and the facility had signed off on each of the trouble areas. I asked "FROM WHOM did you get advice regarding these issues?", and he said with a dismissive wave of the hand, "Oh, don't worry so much. We already have two or three just like it in the building.".

Lori, just like your OP, this is not an isolated incident. What do we do? In my example case I elected to allow this yahoo to commit seppuku. I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about these.

Just say no.

I don't do non-compliant access control.

 

[Doorman]

Good morning LARMGUY. Good to meet ya.

"I don't do non-compliant access control." Neither do I. This (the captioned material) isn't noncompliant until someone installs it in a building, that is sort of the point.

Oh, I forgot to mention these cross-corridor doors have no vision lites either... it just keeps getting better and better.

 

[LARMGUY]

Mornin doorman,

Aren't business owners, GC's, and architects fun?

My job is to educate the owner to keep people secure, safe, and prevent lawsuits. If we can install a system that is code complient, and the owner can use instead of abuse, we all leave smiling. I have walked away from several sales because of the distorted plans they had for their system. I have also pointed out to many owners if I touch their system, and I don't bring it to code, I'm just as liable as they are.

The post about the double card reading door is one example. I will do it only if I install an emergency release button in addition to the two readers for a maglock door and the fire alarm releases the lock upon alarm. If I can persuade them, I would electrify a crashbar for the locking mechanism.

Usually such doors are used to montor employees whereabouts. If the door is not monitored by security and hard anti passback is not enabled, this type setup can easly be defeated by piggy backing on someone else's card.

I have used these doors at airports, and high security businesses. All have two means of egress.