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Urinal flushometer [Vacuum Breaker]

Discussion in 'Commercial Plumbing Codes' started by MechanicalPiper, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. MechanicalPiper

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    So last minute my customer found urinals he liked much better (than the ones I roughed-in for). He sent me the specs, I said fine as they seemed interchangeable. Come trim time, the urinals are taller than the specs he sent making the top of urinal to vacuum breaker 4 7/8". Is the 6" a no compromise rule, or would an inspector show a little leniency here?

    -- Note II, TapaTalk II--
     
  2. TheCommish

    TheCommish Sawhorse

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    Back charge the customer for the repair, he is the one that provided the specks
     
  3. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    No exceptions here.......we enforced it on a new city facility a few years back, as mentioned, sounds like a change order. This isn't an alternate methods/materials, code says 6", pretty clear. JMHO
     
  4. MechanicalPiper

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    Re: Urinal flushometer [Vacuum Breaker]

    Thanks for the replies. It's a solid slab of granite on the wall, so the only real option would be to go back to the original urinal as opposed to raising the water height. It's a shame as the urinals he got are really amazing looking, and the original ones are nothing special.

    Can anyone point me to the exact reasoning behind the 6 inches? Just out of curiosity I've been searching the internet for the functional differnces between a 5" length and a 6" length but haven't found anything very detailed. I understand the principle of the vacuum breaker, just wondering how yhe height affects this purpose.

    -- Note II, TapaTalk II--
     
  5. globe trekker

    globe trekker Sawhorse

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    MechanicalPiper,

    Which code, ..which section? Thanks!

    .
     
  6. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    2003 IPC 608.15.4......But I do not understand how you would ever get a backflow situation in a urinal........
     
  7. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    I don't know either, but it is what the code says. When we encountered the new city building defiency, we told the contractor if he could get the manufacturers engineers to give us a letter buying off on it, it did not happen, the manufacturer would not do it.
     
  8. Gregg Harris

    Gregg Harris Gold Member

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    A 12 inch rough flush valve will come with a 9 inch vacuum breaker tube. Cut it to fit. The 6 inch minimum is to the flood level rim of the fixture. On your urinal that will probably be about 30 inches bellow your vacuum breaker.
     
  9. Gregg Harris

    Gregg Harris Gold Member

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    A 12 inch rough flush valve will come with a 9 inch vacuum breaker tube. Cut it to fit. The 6 inch minimum is to the flood level rim of the fixture. On your urinal that will probably be about 30 inches bellow your vacuum breaker.
     
  10. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Soooooo.....more for a W/C than a urinal........that makes a little more sense.....
     
  11. MechanicalPiper

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    Re: Urinal flushometer [Vacuum Breaker]I'm UPC code here, and the code reads 6" from the highest part of a urinal.-- Note II, TapaTalk II--

    View attachment 666

    View attachment 666

    /monthly_2013_02/uploadfromtaptalk1360019688786.jpg.d74d5e9c245d9788d68471f41dcfb588.jpg
     
  12. Gregg Harris

    Gregg Harris Gold Member

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    Poorly written.The intent is there but poor wording. The purpose of the vacuum breaker is to prevent back siphoning, and if the water level reaches the top of the urinal there are worse problems than cross contamination.
     
    JBI likes this.
  13. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    Sounds like a code change proposal from some plumbing experts.
     
    JBI likes this.
  14. MechanicalPiper

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    Re: Urinal flushometer [Vacuum Breaker]

    I'm also of the belief that the ADA urinal should have the flushometer lower than the 6" to make it more accessible. Keeping the rim @ 17", and then following the 6" minimum rule puts the handle at 47.5"...which is higher than any other ADA height that I know of.

    -- Note II, TapaTalk II--
     
  15. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    48" is usually the top of the reach range.......but then again...I have never considered the urinal as an obstruction........

     
    JBI likes this.
  16. MechanicalPiper

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    Re: Urinal flushometer [Vacuum Breaker]

    I guess I will find out @ inspection time. There's 2 inspectors that could show up. I know 1 of the inspectors for this area knows the code book inside and out, and doesn't allow for anything beyond exactly what is written. He will notice this for sure. I guess we will see if he sticks with the wording of the text this time also, or sees that the fundamental function we're trying to accomplish [backflow prevention] is achieved.

    BTW, this is the same inspector that refused to allow wall cover on a job [when I was out of town, and couldn't easily perform his listed correction] because the joist layout made my hangers for ABS pipe [a 2" vent, will never have water in it] every 4' 3/4", as opposed to the required 4'. I quite literally had to get a scissor-lift delivered again and add hangers. The other inspector came out for the re-inspection and couldn't believe the original inspector wrote that up.

    -- Note II, TapaTalk II--
     
  17. MechanicalPiper

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    In regard to that situation, did you want the letter from the engineer of the urinal, the flushometer, or both?

    Thanks in advance. I would like to be a little prepared for this one.
     
  18. MechanicalPiper

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    I'm wondering if something like this will be acceptable, since we all understand the idea trying to be accomplished by the vacuum breaker. Any inspectors care to weigh in on if this would enough to bring with me to the inspection?Thanks again.

    View attachment 670

    View attachment 669

    View attachment 669

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    /monthly_2013_02/572953c6b6ca3_UrinalRevisted.jpg.2185d94664134f8a7e57a0e8f9e4402e.jpg

    /monthly_2013_02/572953c6b92cc_UrinalRevisted2.jpg.bafb7f90b5b7d595d90ca635de03b55a.jpg
     
  19. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    While I agree with the explanation in the jpeg, I don't know if it will carry the day. We were looking for a buyoff from the flushometer manufacture, it was their CL mark on the flushometer.

    Keep us posted......
     
  20. Kyle Thomas James

    Kyle Thomas James New Member

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    Just installed a new blowout American standard at a local bar because they have been having issues with the old washout getting clogged. There was a height difference of 1 1/2". The new urinal has an 1 1/4" top Spud as opposed to the 3/4" the old one had. Here's the issue... At the end of the flush the vacuum breaker pisses water out the holes on top. The length of the vacuum breaker tube is 5 inches, only 4 inches from the line on the tube to the top of the urinal. I have tried 4 different vacuum breakers and just about everything I can think of. Will changing the height of the valve (a longer vacuum breaker leg) fix my problem?
     

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