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Vacant Buildings

conarb

Registered User
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
3,505
Location
California East Bay Area
Now Oakland and Berkeley are going to try to force landlords to rent out buildings to help solve the housing crisis, the problem is many building owners are sitting on them not wanting to pay the huge costs of bringing them up to code, ADA in particular on commercial buildings and seismic upgrades on all buildings.

East Bay Times said:
There are more than 141 vacant residential buildings in Berkeley, with 400 empty units between them, Councilwoman Kate Harrison said Tuesday. Of those, 68 have been vacant for more than a decade. And that only includes buildings required to register with the rent control board — the city has no way to track the vacancy rate of newer buildings, or those that are otherwise exempt from rent control.¹



¹ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/0...on-vacant-buildings-to-ease-housing-shortage/
 
I was just reading in another forum about a $60,000 ad placed in the San Francisco Chronicle about a crazy homeless guy opening sissors in the Nieman Marcus Cafe complaining it's not safe anymore in the city. Finally a couple of commentors who have/jhad businesss in San Francisco complained that it's terrible at his business and another commented:

Zero Hedge said:
Skateboarder SFopolis Sat, 07/14/2018
I am sorry you have lost your city. I lost mine when Apple decided to expand - can never own a home where I grew up in Cupertino. The homeless expansion in the South Bay is also quite evident. The local park next to my house has now become a homeless hub and they have been camping there for the last week or so.

A live-and-let-live attitude is great, but when these guys are taking over public spaces where kids play, making the place a dump, and doing drugs, it's time to do something about it. The local businesses that neighbor the park originally let the homeless sleep behind their establishment - it kind of jump started the whole thing. Fvcking idiots.

StreetObserver SFopolis Sat, 07/14/2018
SFpolis Did you ever think about moving your residence out of the city? Even the business? Friends own a studio in San Rafael's Canal district east of 101. It's like the Mission was 40 or so years ago, lots of industrial spaces and apartments with reasonable rents and a lenient building code.

San Rafael's a nice up and coming town that's an easy bus ride from SF and is close to the ferry terminal to the city. Advantage one is that you are in the place that lots of San Franciscans go to escape the city on weekends. Advantage two is that the schools in Marin are far better.

Advantage three is that they have real police in all the Marin towns that wouldn't put up with the political interference that the SFPD has to.¹

Bolding by me, note the phrase "with reasonable rents and a lenient building code." You guys who enforce the codes to the letter of the law are responsible for lots of this, I've been arguing for some years now that you should apply the law reasonabley.


¹ https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...-franciscans-watch-your-backs-homeless-people
 
They were not enforcing codes in 1978??

Plus they have not changed that much?? As far as life safety.

Do they want to allow more ghost ship buildings??
 
They were not enforcing codes in 1978??

Plus they have not changed that much?? As far as life safety.

Do they want to allow more ghost ship buildings??

Enforcement was a lot more reasonable, especiallly with seismic and ADA was unheard of, what's better, cooping thme all all up in Ghost Ships, along with their urine, feces, and needles, or allowing them to live on the streets? As I said recently I won't even go into San Francisco any more it's such a "shithole".
 
I've been arguing for some years now that you should apply the law reasonably.

I apply the law as it is written. I don't have the latitude to do otherwise. It would be ridiculous to allow inspectors to apply the code as they see fit.

That's the way it was supposed to happen. That's not the way it actually happens.

There's a hodgepodge of results from inspectors doing their thing. Not due to an altruistic bent, but rather from a lack of code knowledge or an understanding of the basics of construction.

Conarb, you want us to quit enforcing ADA and I want you to know that I agree. I turn the ADA over to a CASP. The most recent is a new restaurant. I checked all of the usual items for being there but not for ADA. For example I tried to rip the grab bars off the wall but I didn't use a tape measure.

My opinion of ADA is that it's a runaway train. Like a real train, there's no stopping it. Leaving it to a CASP is an improved allocation of my time. Why should I spend a few hours checking the hundreds of dimensions found in Chapter 11B when they are going to hire an outside consultant to do it again. This is similar to commissioning on larger projects and HERS testing on smaller ones. I don't perform any of that stuff either so a report from an expert satisfies my responsibility.

I would be happy to turn framing inspections over to engineers when a Structural Observation form is turned in......except for one small glitch......engineers don't know what they are looking at.
 
Here we have all kinds of people living in the streets because they can't afford to pay rent, now cities want to force building owners to rent their properties out, are these cities going to allow landlords to rent them out without bringing them up to code? How many of these buildings are large industrical buildings that aren't zoned for residential? And of course how many of them were built to residential standards?
 
Stating that the code has not "... changed that much?? As far as life safety." is rather myopic. The seismic codes have changed very significantly. Also in California and in particularly the Bay Area we believe in earthquakes.

Structural observation were never intended to be inspections. The problem is building departments that want to avoid their obligation to inspect the construction. On the other hand if we take this approach to its logical conclusion an owner could have its consultants perform all of the inspections that the building department should be performing thus avoiding the need for the building department to do any inspections.
 
Structural observation were never intended to be inspections. The problem is building departments that want to avoid their obligation to inspect the construction. On the other hand if we take this approach to its logical conclusion an owner could have its consultants perform all of the inspections that the building department should be performing thus avoiding the need for the building department to do any inspections.

"The problem is building departments that want to avoid their obligation to inspect the construction."

True enough for large departments. Building departments of size become bloated with bureaucrats. The focus is on getting through another day with as little strife as possible.

"On the other hand if we take this approach to its logical conclusion an owner could have its consultants perform all of the inspections that the building department should be performing thus avoiding the need for the building department to do any inspections."

At least there would be an entity that carries liability. As long as an AHJ is beyond the reach of any lawsuit there is no reason to perform.
 
Did you guys read that article? I hope some wealthy landowner sues the _ _ _ _ out of that city.

If I own a building and the taxes are paid, exterior is maintained, grass is mowed, and the building is secure, there's no legit reason whatsoever for the gov't. to tell me what I have to do with that building. I have to keep it safe on the exterior, and the argument is pretty well settled that that will fly, but that's the extent of what I have to do. All the "public good" or "common good" or whatever else commie nonsense you can come up with won't ever make an ordinance forcing me to spend money and then use my building for any specific purpose constitutional, and it's a shame that the voters there have put the people who come up with this nonsense in charge of anything.

The whole thing is plain ridiculous.
 
Structural observation were never intended to be inspections. The problem is building departments that want to avoid their obligation to inspect the construction. On the other hand if we take this approach to its logical conclusion an owner could have its consultants perform all of the inspections that the building department should be performing thus avoiding the need for the building department to do any inspections.

Small departments need assistance with larger projects. I'm not certified to do MED gas, so it's turned over to someone that can. We don't have the tools to determine compaction on commercial footing or pier, so it's turned over to a specialist. There's a point that the city wants some assurances that a building meets the intent of the code.

What we have to make clear is the SI does not work for the contractor, their suppose to be third party inspectors. Their at the job site daily and can be manipulated by the contractor.
 
If a jurisdiction does not have the resources or expertise needed they can always hire a consultant to assist They cannot impose an inspection obligation on the engineer of record. California Business and Professions Code Section 6735.1 effectively precludes the local jurisdiction from imposing such an obligation since state law says that the engineer does not have an inherent obligation to perform inspections. But this assumes that the building department recognizes state law.
 
What we have to make clear is the SI does not work for the contractor, their suppose to be third party inspectors. Their at the job site daily and can be manipulated by the contractor.
Chapter 17 needs to be changed here, the way I read it the SI has to be hired by the owner and not the builder, that works on a fixed price contract, but large jobs are mostly T&M (or Cost Plus) and it's to the owners' financial advantage to do it as cheaply as possible and to the contractors' advantage to do it the most expensive way possible, both from and income and a liability standpoint.

All of this being said, we are now in a situation when cities are proposing to force owners to rent out premisses, it may take the courts to determine if this is even legal, but are the cities going to force inspections prior to renting them out? Is it legal to force owners to spend the money to upgrade buildings to code compliance? In many cases it will cost more to bring buildings into compliance than can be recaptured by rent for many years, especially since permits trigger reassessment and higher taxes. I've owned buildings that I've sat on for years waiting for the neighboring values to justify the costs of demolition and new construction.
 
The requirements in the code are there because when the contractor hires the special inspectors he will find those inspectors who will be easy on him. Not everything is about cost.

In general it is not legal for a jurisdiction to force a building owner to upgrade the building if it was properly maintained. On the other hand there is no problem with requiring the building be repaired to keep it consistent with the original permit. But the City is not requiring the building be upgraded, rather they are assessing a tax on unoccupied buildings.
 
Be interesting to find out if the vacant properties are still paying fee's to have water even if they aren't using any?

If adopted the IPMC can be used to maintain the properties, I think recently a town in Wyoming came out against it's adoption, it was posted right here on this here forum!

Mark K, I'm with you, I Disagree with a city assessing a tax on unoccupied buildings.
 
the problem = change of use
say from warehouse to residential:
$ Sprinklers.
$ Access,
$ ADA
$ Parking
$ Utility upgrades
$ Financing
$ maybe new or expanded structural systems
low $ special inspections
$ Fees


Spend millions to have "low income housing" or wait for that tenant to come along that needs exactly what it has been. I will bet they do not get many takers to convert for the housing.
 
The City does not have the right to force you to change occupancies.

You might want to consider claiming that the Cities actions are the equivalent of a taking (10th Amendment). On the other hand if this effectively eliminates all commercial value to the property you might be stronger to claim a regulatory taking.
 
could not read the original article without a subscription purchase - but what CONARB posted said that the vacant buildings are "residential" properties. If they are all residential then something is stopping them from being used and either they are seriously dilapidated or neighborhoods that have gone to the criminals. It could be the development fees and permits. I think that there is a problem of people not wanting to pay any rent and they have become content with the homeless lifestyle. Those people in turn rely on the affordability issue to be the denominator rather than their decisions. Not saying that there is not an affordability problem but we used to solve the issue with multiple generations in homes, roommates, boarding houses, etc. Nowadays if it ain't got an on-suite, etc. it is not acceptable.
 
could not read the original article without a subscription purchase - but what CONARB posted said that the vacant buildings are "residential" properties.

Here's the whole thing:

East Bay Times said:
BERKELEY — In a new effort to squeeze more homes into a chronically under-supplied market, officials here are zeroing in on the city’s low-hanging housing fruit — vacant buildings.

The Berkeley City Council this week voted to start fining some landlords who let their properties sit empty too long, hoping the move will help ***** the city’s housing stock and clean up its unsightly rundown buildings.

“We’re in a housing crisis,” Mayor Jesse Arreguin said Tuesday before the council vote. “We have a number of buildings in the city of Berkeley that are completely vacant, which is, frankly, criminal.”

The measure cleared its main hurdle Tuesday, but it requires one more vote by council July 24 before it will become final. If it passes, the measure will go into effect 30 days after the final vote.

As the Bay Area struggles under the weight of a crushing housing shortage, several cities have considered ways to turn ugly, vacant buildings into livable housing. Earlier this year Oakland City Councilwoman Rebecca Kaplan proposed taxing the owners of empty buildings thousands of dollars a year, but she withdrew the measure before it made it onto voters’ November ballot. Instead she hopes to create a city registry of vacant buildings, which would require owners of empty properties to pay a registration fee — and if the building is a blight on the neighborhood — pay a fine. Kaplan expects the registry, which unlike a tax, would not require voter approval, to go before city council this fall.

There are more than 141 vacant residential buildings in Berkeley, with 400 empty units between them, Councilwoman Kate Harrison said Tuesday. Of those, 68 have been vacant for more than a decade. And that only includes buildings required to register with the rent control board — the city has no way to track the vacancy rate of newer buildings, or those that are otherwise exempt from rent control.

The proposal, which passed unanimously Tuesday, expands the city’s blight ordinance to include multi-unit residential buildings that have been empty for more than 120 days. Now landlords would be fined if their buildings are both empty and are an eyesore in another way — if they are falling apart, overgrown with weeds, or in drastic need of a paint job, for example. Fines start at $100 and are capped at $500 per violation.

Harrison, who says similar ordinances in West Sacramento and Roseville inspired her proposal, acknowledged the fines aren’t that severe and can still be brushed off.

“There are going to be people who violate it no matter what,” she said. But she hopes that most landlords simply don’t realize the impact their vacant properties are having, and can be persuaded to make changes.

Berkeley eventually may ramp up its crackdown on vacant buildings by proposing a vacancy tax like the one Oakland considered earlier this year. Such a tax, which would need to be approved by voters, is “certainly on the list for the future,” Harrison said.

Berkeley homeowner Eric Friedman, 47, spoke up during Tuesday’s council meeting to protest the ordinance he says falsely equates vacancy and blight. It should be up to a homeowner to decide how to use his or her property — not the City Council, he said.

“Just because something is vacant doesn’t make it a nuisance,” he said in an interview.

But 74-year-old Margy Wilkinson said in a city with 1,000 homeless residents, having so many vacant units is unacceptable. She sees many in her own neighborhood, which she hopes the expanded ordinance will take care of.

“I’ve been reporting vacant buildings to the city,” Wilkinson said, “and I have to say, it feels like nothing ever happens.”

One of the things going on here is both of these cities have rent control, at some point it costs more in maintenance and taxes than they receive in rents. My son lives in a rent controlled building in Berkeley, the landlord recently called him offering him $55,000 to vacate and give up his claims, he refused saying he would consider it as a down payment.
 
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The requirements in the code are there because when the contractor hires the special inspectors he will find those inspectors who will be easy on him. Not everything is about cost.

I guess I didn't make myself clear, that can be true on a fixed price contract but not on cost plus contracts, on large extensive contracts almost all are cost plus or some such kind of contract, the more work any inspector requires the more the contractor makes and the more it costs the owner.

When special Inspection first showed up I had a difficult time explaining to my owners that they had to contract with the special inspectors, they felt they were being blindsided with extra costs not in their contract, I created another line item on my cost breakdown showing my estimated special inspection costs, then at the bottom I backed it out explaining that they had to contract with and pay the special inspector separately, this way they are on notice of the fact that they have to constract with and pay for special inspections, none of them like it but at least they are on notice of the fact and the estimated amount from the outset. They are still upset that the city doesn't do it when they see all the fees I pay the city, it didn't help once when a German engineer stepped in to state that in all European cities local inspectors do inspect everything, and all are certified as welding inspectors.
 
Conarb, you're a lawyer right? Or, you have a law degree?

Do you know if there is any case law that's made it to SCOTUS on rent control? Seems to me that'd be a hard sell from a constitutional standpoint too - just wondering if it's ever been argued. I'll admit I don't know much about it, but it sure doesn't seem like it should be legal. Do they frame it as a tax, and that's how they get away with it?
 
J Carver:

I've never followed that but I do know that real estate groups have fought it, so I assume it has passed muster to some level, let me think about how I can research it. Another thing that might be going on, is real estate groups may be waiting until we can get a conservative majority on the Supreme Court, then take it up the line.
 
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