• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

waiting room in elevator lobby

Mr. Inspector

SAWHORSE
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
4,076
Location
Poconos/eastern PA
Have a hospital I-2, IB, 5 story, sprinklered building. Not a high rise. Elevator lobbies required per 2009 IBC 708.14. Exceptions don't come into play. Plans show a one hour fire parition and doors around the lobby and waiting room on 2nd and 3rd floors. There is an unrated door and wall between the waiting room and the lobby. Can waiting room be part of the lobby? Or does ther need to be a rated wall/door between the lobby and waiting room. I know a waiting room can be part of a corridor but not sure about an elevator lobby.
 
3 elevators on the north wall of the elevator lobby. 1 hour walls and double doors on east and west end of elevator lobby to corradors. South wall (across from elevators) is a unrated wall and door to a small waiting room. Next to the waiting room on the same side (south wall) of the elevator lobby is an open office with a half wall with a counter all the way across. The rated wall goes around behind these rooms. There is a 1 hour door on the back wall of the open office. So the 1 hour wall goes all around the eleavator lobby including the waiting room and office. Can this be done?
 
Some people try to do it .

I believe it is wrong

What is the normal purpose of a rated elevator lobby ??

I have seen the wraps in corridors and disagree with them

I think 101 is a little more allowable in this matter
 
Rick18071 said:
3 elevators on the north wall of the elevator lobby. 1 hour walls and double doors on east and west end of elevator lobby to corradors. South wall (across from elevators) is a unrated wall and door to a small waiting room. Next to the waiting room on the same side (south wall) of the elevator lobby is an open office with a half wall with a counter all the way across. The rated wall goes around behind these rooms. There is a 1 hour door on the back wall of the open office. So the 1 hour wall goes all around the eleavator lobby including the waiting room and office. Can this be done?
As described; you have an elevator lobby that does not have the required fire resistive rating at wall common to waiting room. Look at 708.14.1 that requires wall and door fire resistive construction. An elevator lobby is not corridor even though it may connect to the corridor system and provide corridor continuity.
 
Can't find anything that says other rooms can't be included into the lobby. I would think this is no different than including restrooms or a waiting room inside corrador rated walls.
 
Here is the 09 IBC code commentary on elevator lobbys. The intent stated by the commentary context indicates fire and smoke separation isolating the elevator shaft from the rest of the building. IMHO having a waiting room not separated by fire resistive and smoke protection from the elevator lobby does not meet the safety level intent.

An elevator lobby or one of its alternatives found in the exceptions to Section 708.14.1 is required whenever an elevator shaft connects more than three stories. Elevator shafts often constitute the largest vertical shaft in multiple-story buildings. Hoistways have the potential for accumulating and spreading hot smoke and gases from a fire to other stories in a building. The chimney or stack effect helps with the upward spread of the products of combustion. It is recognized that smoke is a major factor in fire deaths and smoke often migrates to areas remote from the source of the fire. Due to the typical operation and movement of the hoistway doors, they generally cannot provide the level of reduced air leakage that is required to reduce the spread of smoke.

Chapter 7 provisions in general address the isolation or compartmentation of fire areas, rooms and stories, which prohibits the growth of fires. Analyses of fires in multiple-story buildings have documented the movement of smoke to upper levels. In the 1980 fire at the MGM Grand Hotel in Las Vegas, 70 of the 84 deaths occupied the 14th to 24th floors, although the fire was on the first level. The Johnson City Retirement fire in 1989 also had a fire originating on the first level with all but two of the 16 fatalities occurring on the upper floors due to smoke movement via vertical shafts that included the elevator hoistway.

The elevator lobby requirement further isolates the fire-resistance-rated elevator shaft enclosures.

The lobby enclosure walls must separate the elevator hoistway doors from the rest of the building by 1-hour fire-resistance-rated partitions constructed for fire partitions. As a point of difference, the chute access rooms required fire barrier construction, whereas, the elevator lobby requirements are for fire partition construction. The elevator lobby separation does not require a horizontal assembly for the floor/ceiling, either, as does a chute access room. But on a positive note, this section references Sections 715.4.3 and 716.5.4.1 for door openings and duct openings. Therefore, the elevator lobby separation requires the 20-minute doors to be smoke and draft control doors (see Section 715.4.3) and also requires duct penetrations to have smoke and fire dampers (see Section 716.5.4.1) unless exempted by those sections. The purpose of the special opening protectives in the elevator lobby enclosures is to delay or prevent the vertical spread of smoke to other floors through the hoistway doors and the shaft.

This section also requires at least one means of egress from the elevator lobby enclosure. Multiple-story buildings often have security concerns that are solved by controlled access from elevator lobbies to the remainder of the floor. Section 708.14.1 clearly establishes that every elevator lobby shall have at least one means of egress ensuring that no occupant in a lobby is left isolated from escape. While this section requires one door from the elevator lobby, every room or space on the floor including the lobby must have access to the required number of exits (usually two) on that story without traveling through tenant spaces. In other words, once the occupant leaves the elevator lobby, he or she must have access to two exits. Egress through elevator lobbies from corridors on both sides is also allowed.

Two questions often arise. One, can a space have its only exit access path through an elevator lobby? The answer is yes, if it meets all the other egress requirements. Second, can an exit enclosure open into an elevator lobby? The answer is yes. An elevator lobby is a normally occupied space in the same manner that a corridor is a normally occupied space. Of course, the elevator hoistway doors can never open into an exit enclosure.

There are seven exceptions that eliminate the requirement for enclosed elevator lobbies or modify the enclosure.

Exception 1 removes the requirement for an enclosed elevator lobby on the street floor of a building when the entire street floor is provided with automatic sprinkler protection. The exception is notable in that it is not conditioned upon the entire building being sprinklered but just the first floor. All fully sprinklered buildings would be relieved of the elevator lobby requirements on the first story.

Exception 2 eliminates the requirement for enclosed elevator lobbies if the elevator is not required to be enclosed in a fire-resistance-rated shaft. Exception 14 to Section 708.2 exempts elevator hoistways in buildings exclusively used for parking. Although Exception 5 is for floor openings in an atrium, it is often considered to allow elevator hoistways located entirely within the atrium to be unenclosed. If an elevator is not required to have a fire-resistance-rated enclosure, it serves no purpose to require a fire-resistance-rated elevator lobby enclosure.

Exception 3 eliminates the need for a lobby area, but still requires the additional layer of fire resistance and smoke control. Doors, in addition to the normal hoistway door, are provided in front of the hoistway opening. These doors or door must meet the following two requirements:

1. They must be easily opened in accordance with Section 3002.6. This ensures that if the door or doors do close that they can be opened by someone who arrives at that level on the elevator, such as fire department personnel. This is particularly important if the doors are horizontal power-operated doors, such as those in Section 1008.1.4.3. Section 3002.6 states that the doors shall be readily openable from the car side without a key, tool, special knowledge or effort.

2. Additional door or doors must be tested in accordance with UL 1784. This test is titled "Air Leakage Tests of Door Assemblies." This test does not provide a fire-resistance rating for the door. This test has no failure criteria as it only measures the leakage rate. The leakage rate for smoke and draft control doors in Section 715.4.3.1 is a maximum of 3 cubic feet per minute per square foot (0.0014 m3/s) of door opening at 0.10 inch of water column pressure (0.02 kPa). It is assumed that they must meet the leakage rate requirements in Section 715.4.3.1, and they must be identified as smoke and draft control doors in accordance with Section 715.4.6.3.

Exception 4 applies to other than Group I-2, Group I-3 and high-rise buildings. An elevator lobby is not required if the building is protected by an NFPA 13 or NFPA 13R sprinkler system. This recognizes the effectiveness of sprinkler systems in controlling the spread of smoke. This exception does not apply to buildings with a floor level over 75 feet (22 860 mm) above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access, nor does this exception apply to Group I-2 and I-3 regardless of height.

Exception 5 still requires an elevator lobby. This exception requires either an NFPA 13 or 13R sprinkler system. This exception allows nonfire-resistance-rated smoke partitions to enclose the lobby in lieu of the normal 1-hour fire-resistance-rated fire partitions. Door openings in the lobby enclosure must still meet the air leakage rate in Section 711.5.2 and must be self-closing or automatic closing. Duct penetrations through the smoke partitions must also be provided with smoke dampers in accordance with the referenced Section 716.5.4.1. This is not much of an exception. Use Exception 5 for Group I-2, I-3 and high-rise buildings; otherwise use Exception 4.

In Exception 6, elevator hoistway pressurization can be used in lieu of elevator lobbies in all buildings regardless of height. This is similar to pressurization of stair enclosures, which is used in lieu of smokeproof enclosures for stairs in Section 909.20.5. The hoistway pressurization requirements are in Section 708.14.2.

Exception 7 is similar to Exception 14 in Section 708.2. parking tiers are open between levels by necessity anyway. Elevators used exclusively to serve only parking levels do not need enclosures, nor do they need lobby separation.
 
Penthouses are defined strictly by code definition and specific provisions. See if your penthouse qualifies:

PENTHOUSE. An enclosed, unoccupied structure above the

roof of a building, other than a tank, tower, spire, dome cupola

or bulkhead.

1509.2 Penthouses. A penthouse or penthouses in compliance

with Sections 1509.2.1 through 1509.2.4 shall be considered as

a portion of the story below.

1509.2.3 Use limitations. A penthouse, bulkhead or any

other similar projection above the roof shall not be used for

purposes other than shelter of mechanical equipment or

shelter of vertical shaft openings in the roof. Provisions such

as louvers, louver blades or flashing shall be made to protect

the mechanical equipment and the building interior from the

elements. Penthouses or bulkheads used for purposes other

than permitted by this section shall conform to the require-

ments of this code for an additional story. The restrictions of

this section shall not prohibit the placing of wood flagpoles

or similar structures on the roof of any building.
 
PENTHOUSE. An enclosed, unoccupied structure.....

I think this is what gets you there...but I don't know if there is a super clean code path...
 
Top